muddysmind.com

Things you forget.

The US is in South Korea under a UN flag, not the US flag. Remember the old series MASH, and how troups from all over the world kept showing up? Well that war was a UN, not a US operation.

The US is still in Korea at the request of the UN, not Korea, and so it is the UN's responsability to solve the problem.

Ahhh! Finally a post with a bit of insight and not the same republican war-monging...

Why does the American government not do more towards N. Korea than Iraq...since N. Korea is more dangerous?

..oil...There arent any self-interests on behalf of our so called politicians at the moment.

But don.t worry...there will be, there always is.

Don, you are correct. This is not a US problem, but everyone expects the US to solve the issue. The US will continue to ignore the North Korean Government until they collapse. Its funny how the first people who want peace and are anti-war are the first one to say we need to act on this situation. They want us to appease, appease, appease.

Marty, Who's side are you on? There is a line between freedom of speech and anti-american. Everything I have seen you post leads me to believe you are anti-american and anti-bush. You know there are other places to live on this planet....

Cwilli:

You throw the terms "Anti-American" and "Un-American" around an awful lot.

Define them us, please.

Does disagreeing with the currently elected(some would say "appointed")President on a matter of policy somehow automatically throw them in bed with Hussein?

As for being "Anti-Bush", so what if he is? Does failing to support the current Presidential administration somehow make one "Anti-" or "Un-American"? Did you support every decision Bill Clinton made? Reagan? George "Read My Lips" The First? Knock it off; you're smarter than that.

I, personally, am incapable of being "Unamerican" because I was born here. Failing to agree with G-Dubya on anything does not make that otherwise.

"See, folks, I have this little problem called 'Thinking'. It's true. And I'm really not a very good American, because I like to think and form my own opinions about things". -George Carlin

Definition,
Anti-American: when you are against everything that America does and stands for.

Just because you exercise the right to free speech, that does not make you Pro-American or mean you believe in what America stands for and I have yet to see most of you actually do something to better this country. Just run your mouths.

I disagree that I have thrown this term around. In fact I cant recall when I have used this term here at all before now.

I believe in our troops. I believe that America is the most giving of countries that has ever been. I believe that America is the only country to rebuild any nation that we have ever fought in. We feed more people and help more foreign nations than anyone ever has. So I am tired of hearing everyone complain about this or that.

Am I the only one who is still behind this country. At times it feels like I am.

and you are exactly right, not everyone is going to be behind everything that an administration does. But you need to remember that as well.

Cwilli wrote:

"Definition,
Anti-American: when you are against everything that America does and stands for"

That's a conveniently broad definition. But that's ok. So, what does America stand for then?
What, exactly, IS America? Let's focus on this a little more..

"Just because you exercise the right to free speech, that does not make you Pro-American or mean you believe in what America stands for..."

Then exactly what does? Is a requirement of Pro-Americanism that one simply accepts the actions(or intended action) of our government, even though it is not in agreement with their personal sense of right and wrong? If so, that's a boldly fascist point of view in my estimation.

Is an American, whether born or naturalized, who exercises his 1st Amendment rights(which incidentally cover more than simple speech), to believe as he chooses, to assemble peaceably with others of like mind and voice his opinion publicly, and in addition exercises his right to vote not Pro-American? I would forcefully argue that he is. Pro-American does not equal blind support. The one VITAL aspect of a democratic republic is the encouragement and tolerance of dissenting opinions. Running our mouths may not be the best final course of action, but it's a pretty good start. And, who are you to say what we may or may not be doing to support our society outside of cyberspace? Don't be so assuming.

"I disagree that I have thrown this term around. In fact I cant recall when I have used this term here at all before now."

On March 3, 2002, in the post "Riddle Me This".

Before you reply, I'm aware after searching the archives that this is the only other use of either of those terms. So, I'll concede that I jumped the gun a bit. I do, however, think that you're a bit quick to label honest dissent as such.

"I believe in our troops."

As do I. They, fortunately or unfortunately, do not have the luxury of deciding whether their orders are morally right or wrong.

"I believe that America is the only country to rebuild any nation that we have ever fought in. We feed more people and help more foreign nations than anyone ever has. So I am tired of hearing everyone complain about this or that."

Well, hey, we do plenty of good things in the world, so if we do the wrong thing here and there and a few thousand people who don't really deserve death get killed in the process....well hell, if you're making an omlette you gotta break some eggs, right? So everyone quit yer whinin'.

Try again.

"Am I the only one who is still behind this country."

Nah. I'm behind my *country* 100% of the time, though I tend not to agree with some of our government's actions over the past decade. But, being behind my *country* does not necessarily mean that I'm behind my government's decision to invade a sovereign nation when 10 years of containment has kept Hussein perfectly docile 99% of the time. Hell, we're 1.5 years out from the WTC attack, and they can't even find Bin Laden.

"and you are exactly right, not everyone is going to be behind everything that an administration does. But you need to remember that as well"

I do remember that, perfectly. I don't think that you do.

Cwili | I take exception with your accusations.

If I am Anti-American then you wear a far worse title ...Why is in Anti-American of me to caution and try to persuade our elected officials to curb their lust for war?

You said

" I believe in our troops. I believe that America is the most giving of countries that has ever been. I believe that America is the only country to rebuild any nation that we have ever fought in. We feed more people and help more foreign nations than anyone ever has. So I am tired of hearing everyone complain about this or that."

I agree with you. America is an incredible nation and because of that we need to set the tone for the rest of the world...in every situation we will either throw water or gasoline on them...I believe we are throwing gasoline on this situation.

Don't let your being "tires of hearing everyone complain about this or that" get in the way of hearing and testing what you do hear...look into things beyond what the right and the left press say...look beyond what the government tells you.

Why could you not trust our government when Bill Clinton was in office? Why can you trust it any more now that George W. Bush is in office? the same core people are still doing the day to day operations in the Senate and Congress...CIA, FBI, etc...

I voted for bush and I am glad he was elected...Gore would have been a nightmare through the last year or so...being that I voted and was involved int he system I have the right to be active in it everyday not just election day...so do you.

Obviously you operate under a very conservative agenda in your life...so do I...but I am going to challenge this war and any otehr war that comes along until the day I die because it effects real people all over the world and it effects the definition of liberty and what it means to live in a free world.

I want to be behind this war in Iraq...I would love to be able to throw my support behind this cause because Iraq needs to be liberated...but the case is not made and has not been made for us to take action.

You said "Am I the only one who is still behind this country. At times it feels like I am."

Get over yourself...you are sickening...spoken like a true far right wing victom of circumstances...I suppose you think the worst thing to be in America is a White man too?

Must have stuck a nerve. I guess the truth hurts, huh.

Oil… Why does everyone keep insisting that we're in this Iraq thing just for oil? Hello!! What do we have in Texas, Alaska and other states? Hmmmm , maybe oil? There is enought oil in Alaska to supply plenty to the US. So I don't think that oil is the reason we're up against Iraq. Let's try again kiddies...

"Must have stuck a nerve. I guess the truth hurts, huh."

Posted by cwilli at March 10, 2003 09:41 PM

Must have struck a nerve. I guess you ran out of arguments, huh.

lol. You dont know me very well do you.

"lol. You dont know me very well do you."

Perhaps I do.

Oh so this is a personal attack against me. Well attack away, lurker. It does not bother me. I happen disagree with you, I disagree with your views and I think you are just flat out wrong. And since you know so much about me then you probably already know that I am Pro-American, Pro-Bush and Pro-Military. I am also very Anti-Clinton. And ‘perhaps’ you already know that I am not the type of person who always has to have the last word. You are. I have already made my point. I don’t see the need to make that point over and over.

I got the last word :-)

Cwili | You crack me up...part of your last post on this subject was "Oh so this is a personal attack against me...." Posted by cwilli at March 11, 2003 02:13 AM

Yet you started out with this "...Marty, Who's side are you on? There is a line between freedom of speech and anti-american. Everything I have seen you post leads me to believe you are anti-american and anti-bush..." Posted by cwilli at March 9, 2003 06:08 PM

When was it never about personal attacks to you? Hello Cwili, This is coffee and you now have a choice to continue sleeping or accept the wake up call. :0)

BRAVO! To marty and Lurker

Bravo!!!

"...Pro-American, Pro-Bush and Pro-Military. I am also very Anti-Clinton. And ‘perhaps’ you already know that I am...."

Yes, I do. More power to you. And there's really no personal attack here, just a wild difference of opinion.

Something here strikes me as funny, though. "....I am Pro-Bush...I am also very Anti-Clinton..."

Go back and read that bit again.

Read that once more.

One more time. Humor me.

Now think about it. We've been arguing across this entire thread over whether one must support the government, whatever it's actions or decisions mean to one morally, but then you come out as being both Pro-Bush and "very"(your word) Anti-Clinton.

Perhaps it didn't occur to you that by that very admission you threw yourself into the Anti-American pool that you yourself defined.

*tsk tsk tsk*

Homework for tonight: Write a 750-word essay on "Why it is bad to argue in circles". Due tomorrow AM.

LOL. I have done more for my country in the last 10 years than most of you will do in your entire life. BTW I never said that I agreed with everything that this county does. But I guess if you knew me like you said you probably did then you would have known that too.

"LOL. I have done more for my country in the last 10 years than most of you will do in your entire life."

...ever been in a war?

Have you?

And besides if though I have not. It does not make that statement any less true.

I've been nowhere near one, thank God, and have only the stories told by my late grandfather and my uncle(when they were willing to talk about it, mind you), about fighting the Germans and the Vietnamese to convince me that there isn't one good thing about being in a war, justified or otherwise.

That's not to say that war is never justified; I'm not that naive. I'd have signed up for WWII on December 8th, 1941. Not Vietnam, and certainly not this new little adventure.

So the short answer is no, and damn glad.

Now, why not answer the question, since you seem to be so adamant that we fight one?

Because I am convinced that if we dont disarm Saddam we will very much regret it in the future. I feel that we will see these WMD in our backyards. I am also convinced that if he wont do it himself than he will give them to somebody who will. I would rather see him fight our soldiers than kill my family with VX gas. Have you ever studied the effects of VX gas? How about Sarin? I have, very closely, its not pretty. According to UN inspectors in 1998 he has over 10,000 liters of this that he still has not proven that he has distroyed. You think he would not use them on us or that he does not have it anymore, thats your opinion. But I am not willing to risk my family or your family's lives on an opinion. This is why I see him as a direct threat to nation security.

BTW I am not out of the woods on this war. I can be called up any day....

Ok, valid concerns. I know what VX and Sarin do, and yeah, it ain't pretty. We'll agree on that.

And yeah, I'm waiting on some of it to show up on my back porch on the end of one of his 100-mile-or-so missles. Wait, he's a few thousand miles short, isn't he...

Point being, that we've done a good job for 10 years of containing him politically and economically through the UN. We've done the same in Korea. Why fix that if it isn't broke? If we're not positive he's destroyed the chemical agents he's supposed to have destroyed, why not work it out with neighboring nations to tighten their borders, even with our help, to make sure nothing comes out of Iraq? We seem to be pretty firmly convinced that N. Korea will collapse by itself eventually, and we know for a fact that they are nuclear. Why should Iraq be any different with the same containment? Sorry, I just don't believe that it's necessary for U.S. soldiers or for Iraqi civilians to be killed over this. Then, that doesn't necessarily give us free access to lots ofcheap oil, either. There's always 2 sides to a story, and the truth usually ends up being in the middle.

That's why I sure as hell don't wanna be in this war, and I hope you're not either.

I can appreciate that we just see things differently. I see him as more of an immediate threat and you see him as something that we can contain. Either way it almost does not matter because our President is bent on doing this one way or another. Also you are right what you said in another post about 'a nasty habit of replacing people's "sonsabi***es" with "our sonsabi***es". ' I agree with that. In fact it was the Kennedy administration that put Saddam in power in the first place. I am not stupid enought to believe that we are perfect, but I would choose no other nation on earth. What makes me mad is all the America bashing that I see and read. If you disagree with what Bush is doing then fine, speak your mind, protest, vote against Bush, burn your bra's, but dont disrespect this great country. Dont go too far and head in the other direction of being against this country. Because like it or not, mistakes and all. This IS the greatest country in the free world.

"This IS the greatest country in the free world."
Thought it was France ... ;-)
Or Switzerland... ANy of you know the always amazing Scott Adams ? Canada is pretty cool too.
Funny I have to disagree with you cwili. At least until I see Ralph Nader elected

definetlyfrench |dude! PLEASE!!! NADER? I don't want him running the PTA at an elementary school let alone being in charge of the entire nation.

Lets not forget that the french are against this war not on any moral grounds but because they have the desire to go another route to get to the Oil of Iraq.

As for the U.S. being the greatest nation in all the world...undoubtedly...everyone else needs to pay pay attention...sure we have some cornballs in here too but there is no greater place to live on the face of the earth.