*sigh*
This is so sad, so, so, sad.
Just read.
BORDEAUX, France — Vandals in southwest Bordeaux torched a replica of the Statue of Liberty and cracked the pedestal of a plaque honoring victims of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.
Posted by Muddy at March 26, 2003 05:57 PM | TrackBackI've been sitting here trying to think of something to add to this, but I'm speechless on this one.
Posted by: Muddy at March 26, 2003 06:03 PMTHis sure is sad.
The statue of liberty is a symbol of what is good in the USA. It is a symbol of what unites France and the USA. It is a symbol of democracy in a world still full of dictators...
This outrageous for no reason.
But of course this does not mean I agree with fox.
President Jacques Chirac angered many Americans by trying to slow the U.S. drive to war.
Chirac tried to prevent the US from involving in a dangerous useless conflict. He tried also to provide the means to build a vast coalition by sticking to strict procedures of inspection under collegial scrutiny. But the US started the military build up long before the inspections could give results. The US never believed in those, it was just a fake, a tool to fool people for the time needed to bring troops in the gulf...
In France, vandals have ransacked McDonald's restaurants in Paris and Strasbourg, targeting the fast food chain as a symbol of American influence.
That is true and stupid, just like boycotting.
In France, vandals have ransacked McDonald's restaurants in Paris and Strasbourg, targeting the fast food chain as a symbol of American influence.
Cafeterias in the U.S. House of Representatives subsequently changed their menus to read "freedom fries" instead of French fries and "freedom toast" instead of French toast.
The subsequently here is false. This move against french people has nothing to do with the mac donald action. It has been done by stupid people with the same kind of reaction than those who burned mac donald.
Some people put a list of products to boycott here. That's just the same crap.
Lawmakers also introduced bills preventing France from participating in any postwar reconstruction projects.
Yeah. And I've been saying that the USA will have a hard time getting UN backing for anything if they do not beg for forgiveness for having waged a war of agression.
This is why I need to quit this site. The arguments get over heated. Nobody listen to the other.
I do not think any of you realize the value of europe, of the world opinion. You really think the USA can do anything it's elected leaders decide ?
What next ? You get into Irak. You punish France. You never admit any errors. And what ? You blow europe construction efforts. Ok still. Easy to do.
And then ?
How do you protect the world order when most of the inhabitants of this world think you are the ones endangering the others ?
The 3000 civilian direct deaths at this rate will soon be reached in Irak. I d say another 10 days.
Soon this war will have killed more irakis than saddam has in all his tenure of power.
I dunno why I write this.
This is just words to hurt you because I see no reaction there.
The US grieve this I can understand. They suffer, they are hurt in their pride. But the way i see it, the strategy they have now is only turning every human on this earth against them.
Don't you realize this is what the terrorist wanted ?
Don't you realize bush is Ben laden best's advertiser ?
Don't you realize they work hand in hand to turn this world into a hell, especially for USA and US citizen ?
Frankly 1 year ago everybody was standing behind the USA... And now ? Nobody.
ANd you think France could have done that ?
No. Don't blame on others.
This administration has done one blow at the world after another.
Finally France has stood up and said enough is enough. This war is not only not justified it is a stupid and dangerous war.
But you knew better.
Well see. Watch TV. Enjoy the burnings of statues of liberty.
YOU DID IT.
With the help of some stupid savages.
That's very stupid of them to side with stupidity and promote tension in between our two countries and continents.
We will all suffer of this. ANd believe me the USA have much more to lose than the french
DF, I don't think you understand our end either. I think both sides don't understand each other. We see France as a superpower wannabe, you see us as ignorant bullies. I can't see that changing in my life time. I don't think that should affect the exchange of ideas and views.
Posted by: Muddy at March 26, 2003 06:54 PMdefinitleyfrench...
"Soon this war will have killed more irakis than saddam has in all his tenure of power."
I dont believe that this war will result in the deaths of at least 2million people...think about that..at least 2million lives have been lost due to saddam husseins regime. iranians , his own citizens, etc. you would have to kill roughly every member of the coalition forces in iraq 6 times to equal that..doesnt that statistic humble you? Now, do you think this man should be left in power? and if you say no and agree..dont tell me that a man like that could be removed peacefully. even you will have to admit that.
Posted by: REDNECK at March 26, 2003 08:01 PMwhat is wrong with this? you advocate bpycott french products,no? well, french people are boycotting america .
i am very sad to be here and happy. a poison joy.
how will us ensure peace in iraq? i was there my house was destyoyed my uncle dead and so many family friends.
now you tell me that it is not for oil, well at least sckywalker said so. halliburton company is in it and this is not for oil.
the hypocrisy.i wanted to go back home. now it seems i won't have one to go back to.
Posted by: Aram at March 26, 2003 08:06 PMAram I don't think the main reason is oil. Oil is just something that gives Irak its value both to french and USA.
Muddy I agree with u that France wants to have an important place in this world, but I think we are kind of realistic, we can not be super power in the ways the US are. We can only build say a coalition of the ?? can't find a word. of those who want to build a world order.
I don't blame the USA I blame this specific administration.
And also I'm tired of hearing France is traitor stabbing allies in the back.
I mean the USA have stabbed Europe in the back recently several times. WIth kyoto, with the international court, with the protectionist measures on steel, with going to Irak without UN approval. This administration does not care what its european allies think. Stupid defense leader, Rumsfeld that's it, compared germany to CUba and syriah. That's great for a country hosting your troops, a country who's supported you the last 50 years...
Just think of this too, middle east is really far from you. It is far closer to us. We will suffer from this war.
Democraty and western world will suffer from US arrogance.
I got this mail. You know the world is crazy when :
best rapper is white
best golfer is black
swiss hold america's cup
French blame the US for being arrogante
Germany does not want to go to war.
And i disapprove of any boycott or destruction of american symbols or accusations made at a country and not to its government or its people,
And I think it is easier to read your post muddy and get the impression we could agree on something that with skywalker bpdoja and others.
Posted by: definitelyfrench at March 27, 2003 01:32 AMHey I'm an easy-going guy :-)
Personally (and I can't divulge why) I've never had a positive impression of Frace, not knocking you DF as you seem a level headed fellow. Les, well... she and I prob won't agree on anything but food, organic all the way baby! I eat so much soy farmers send me thank you cards :-)
muddy, it is cause of monty python/
Posted by: divine.heretic at March 27, 2003 01:48 PMToo much soy can be a bad thing...a friend of mine had to go easy on it as he was growing "man boobs"
not kidding true.
Hey, at least we agree on food. Although I am not all about organic as I am more about vegetarian dishes especially cooking greek indian and italian foods....
Posted by: Les at March 27, 2003 10:48 PMmeaning organic veggies etc... I'd much rather was the cow poo off a red pepper than scrub off man made chems man, yuck. :-P
Posted by: Muddy at March 27, 2003 11:43 PMDF responds to every thread and it is obvious he only desires to ravage America and inflame Americans. Why do any of you bother to answer him/her?
Anyone who says this war is "useless" obviously does not believe in justice and thinks it's fine to allow leaders of nations to starve, torture and murder its citizens. Since France, Germany and Russia only disagreed with enforcement of the 17 resolutions passed since 1991 because they have been arming Saddam Hussein with the weapons and technology that now spill American blood for THEIR oil (and mucho euros) in violation of the very resolutions passed by their votes, they have nothing to do now but hope that the USA doesn't find proof of their own corruption.
It is only a matter of time. Maybe the French citizens who think this war is a moral issue, instead of justice, libertaion, and national security, will realize the degree of their government's immorality (but I doubt it......they protested nuclear proliferation by the USA during the 40 years we kept them protected from the Soviets at the same time they were selling nuclear reactor cores and enriched uranium to Iraq). If all they have to replace Coca Cola with is "Mecca Cola", it is obvious who and what they prefer. History has shown that all America has to do is ignore them instead of saving them and the noise will soon be reduced to silence.
Definitelyfrench needs to definitely stay in France and be ignored by this board. History speaks for itself. And, so will the very short term future.
Posted by: Dixie Belle at March 28, 2003 08:07 AMI'm trying to remember?????...Wasn't France invaded and occupied by the Nazi's in World War II? Was it Iraq who liberated them? Was it peace that liberated them? And in Vietnam...wasn't that originally a French Colony? Was it Iraq that provided aid to France in the '50s to support them in Indochina (Vietnam)? So much for gratitude! What support does the US get from France?...I'll tell you...they provide target practice...for all those French Mirage fighters and French military vehicles sold to Iraq...THANK YOU FRANCE FOR ALL YOUR SUPPORT IN HELPING KEEP OUR MILITARY PROFICIENT!!!!....WE UNDERSTAND HOW THIS IS IMPORTANT TO YOU...YOU MAY NEED US IN THE FUTURE.
Posted by: Chuck at March 28, 2003 09:14 AMDF responds to every thread and it is obvious he only desires to ravage America and inflame Americans.
That's false I've been very civil. I've posted only facts. I've reckoned the french position had some flaws. In here apart from les who's clearly against bush, I've not seen anyone with a moderate opinion.
Why do any of you bother to answer him/her?
I guess it's because it's hard to hide from the facts that as days pass they proove me right.
Anyone who says this war is "useless" obviously does not believe in justice and thinks it's fine to allow leaders of nations to starve, torture and murder its citizens.
NO. If this war could replace the leader of irak without starving (don't know the word for depriving of water supply) and murder it's citizens it would be useful. But it can not, even though the US army tries. It's not possible. And in the meanwhile the arab and muslims get more angry at USA and very soon at us, because terrorists don't make differences between the western coutries.
I dunno if i need answering chuck. his post is not new. of course it would not be helpful to say that the US sold chemical products to irak, helped it financially sold weapons when it was fighting Iran, that the US financed osama bin laden (and not france) and so on.
Useless mentionning the huge amounts of weapons destructed by inspections from 1991 to 1998 inspections stopped by USA and GB, nor the 70 missiles destroyed even recently. Nor that it was very easy to get France support, U only needed to give it the time that you are now losing because you've decide to go there alone.
remember. IT S ALL YOUR FAULT.
I like this sentence.
I hope it makes you rethink a little bit at what you are writing.
WITH REGARD TO POST BY DIXIE BELLE:
>
But are morality and justice not interconnected?
Without morality we wouldn't have some sence of what is just and what isn't and vice versa.
>
That does not work because there is never absolute silence from the country we attempt to ignore...we turned our heads from Hussein for a bit didnt we and look what happened. I am afraid we live in a globalised world and waht effects one country will ultimately affect us.
>
If anything history should have taught you that you do not ignore anyone...even the words of a mad man, which you may think DF to be (although I would disagree).
Should we ignore the threats of the terrorists, of N.Korea just because we see them as absurd? No, obviously our actions in Iraq show you cannot do that. Ignorance of even a fool renders you a fool.
>"
Have you heard of a difference in solutions? Happens all the time. Now because people are against the war does not mean they are for Hussein. And France is not severing relations with US, if anything it is vice versa. We live in a world full of differnce in culture and ideas and we have to learn to compromise.And is we do not agree then we don't agree.
What about the Iraqis who disagree with America's foeign policy. Should we just shoot them? You compromise. They are coming from a different place than the US.
And have you heard about Iran contra or is that just a myth?
Oops guess the copies of what dixie chick said and i disagreed with didnt come up
well here they are in order
"It is only a matter of time. Maybe the French citizens who think this war is a moral issue, instead of justice, libertaion, and national security,"
"History has shown that all America has to do is ignore them instead of saving them and the noise will soon be reduced to silence.
"Definitelyfrench needs to definitely stay in France and be ignored by this board. History speaks for itself. And, so will the very short term future."
recent interesting news. In egyp the muslim movements turn away from terrorist action, in fact france and in general europe's stance is allowing them to westernize. they can see that democracy, human rights, capitalism does not mean USA and its foreign policy and its narrow interests.
So here comes again the theory of the good and evil policeman. With France and US disagreement helping the west in general. If only they can get to agree on something in the end. Which is related to how the USA can try to care a little bit more for the rest of the world and think that getting support from the world population would be the best tool for their own security.
you know what the french didn't want to fight the germans when the germans were in paris so why should it suprise anyone that they would not go to iraq. and we want to say that this is a war for u.s. oil, the french are economic allies with iraq for oil....so actually there stance may be built on oil too. i also think that if you sign UN 1441 then you should be prepared to back up your actions. european countries should be the first to support the removal of sadam, as his military power and weapons advance it will only be a matter of time until he would test his might on those closest to him. and how about the marshall plan, i find it hard to take hosilities from countries we rebuilt. iraq is under one of the most ruthless dictators in history, the people of iraq deserve the to lev in a society like america or france where they have choice. my thoughts go out to all the servicemen, whatever mation they represent, and to those civilians in iraq...the sooner this ends, the better for all.
Posted by: stars and bars at March 29, 2003 07:20 PMLong live post Bush America.
lol.
I wonder Why I still come up here. Now that the war is started ... There's nothing to do but win it.
That's the tricky part.
What's the use pointing out the bad news (Cheney threatens syriah... What about invading it next? WHat to do with the pro iraki volunteers that may flow from there ?)
I keep wondering if at one point people will start realising that the french advice was a good one and a huge coalition for a clear agenda would have been better than a coalition of the willing to go in the wild...
where future is unclear and dangerous.
DF has the right idea! If France just keeps her head in the sand maybe no-one will notice and they can act as a second rate player forever. Along for the ride on the skirt of the risk takers. Don't say too much DF, France might actually get noticed and be forced to do something besides profit. The nerve of France to suggest the US is in it for the oil! What is that? A little projection maybe? Pitiful.
Posted by: Leo at March 31, 2003 07:50 PMWhen bush will leave his post, I tell you what, he will have harmed the USA so badly that France will have more chance to lead a major role in the world than the USA.
France never said the USA were in there for oil. Neither did I. So you keep your projections for yourself. I can see only these things bringing you there, foolishness, fear, pride and stupidity.
If you wanted to kill sadam and replace a regime, why not do it properly have him assassinated. But no, it needs be a war approved by UNO. OK. But then once UNO says no : no war. Don't get there alone or fear "serious consequences".
ANy way. I'm wondering what will kill the most people : the irak war or the new disease.
Posted by: definitelyfrench at April 1, 2003 02:22 PMWhen bush will leave his post, I tell you what, he will have harmed the USA so badly that France will have more chance to lead a major role in the world than the USA.
France never said the USA were in there for oil. Neither did I. So you keep your projections for yourself. I can see only these things bringing you there, foolishness, fear, pride and stupidity.
If you wanted to kill sadam and replace a regime, why not do it properly have him assassinated. But no, it needs be a war approved by UNO. OK. But then once UNO says no : no war. Don't get there alone or fear "serious consequences".
ANy way. I'm wondering what will kill the most people : the irak war or the new disease.
Posted by: definitelyfrench at April 1, 2003 02:23 PMSoory about my stupid son.
Posted by: Bush Senior at December 2, 2003 05:26 PMImpressive. Calling a person who is probably more educated and more successful on his own you are, stupid.
Posted by: skywalker at December 2, 2003 07:59 PM