muddysmind.com

Hey baby...you know I COMPLETELY agree w/you....BUT...you also know there's too much power to be gained and too much money to be made and had with things being set in motion the way they already are...and politicians get "drunk" on both of them.

Muddy wrote:

"We all know the government lies to us daily and most are back-stabbing animals."

The difference in this case is that the government official in question has the power to send U.S. troops into combat and to their deaths, more or less unilaterally, based on his word for at least 90 days without the approval of Congress.

Muddy wrote:

" So Why, oh Why are we STILL talking about this one sentence the president put into his state of the union speech?"

Well, Muddy, because unfortunately it's not just that one sentence that is problematic."

From http://www.veteransforcommonsense.org/newsArticle.asp?id=890

The Rest of Your Words, Mr. Bush, Are Also A Problem

A BUZZFLASH READER COMMENTARY by Perri Green

POTUS SOTU:

President Bush says he's "moved on" and that the "case is closed" with regards to those "sixteen words" in his SOTU.

Fine. What about these 71 from the same speech?

* "Our intelligence officials estimate that Saddam Hussein had the materials to produce as much as 500 tons of sarin, mustard and VX nerve agent. U.S. intelligence indicates that Saddam Hussein had upwards of 30,000 munitions capable of delivering chemical agents. We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas."

To date, not a single UAV has been found, or drop of CBWs, or any munitions capable of delivering said weapons.

Is the CIA responsible for those words as well?

What about these 26, also from the same speech?

* "Evidence from intelligence sources, secret communications and statements by people now in custody reveal that Saddam Hussein aids and protects terrorists, including members of Al Qaida."

To date, not a shred of evidence connecting Hussein with Al Qaida or any other known terrorist organizations (besides certain Palestinian groups who represent no direct threat to the US) have been revealed.

And then there are these 20:

* "Our intelligence sources tell us that he (Saddam) has attempted to purchase high-strength aluminum tubes suitable for nuclear weapons production."

The IAEA as well as dozens of leading scientists declared said tubes unsuitable for nuclear weapons production -- months before the war.

The CIA has assumed tepid responsibility for not insisting Bush remove the sixteen words about British evidence of Hussein's alleged attempts to purchase uranium from Africa. (Since when does the US go to war on the basis of British intel anyway?)

Fine.

Bush, however, must take responsibility for the rest his words, all 117 of which were lies. Lies that have resulted in the deaths of over two hundred American GIs, the wounding of at least 1,046, and the senseless killing of more than six thousand innocent Iraqi civilians. If this doesn't qualify as impeachable (and even indictable) high crimes and misdemeanors, then nothing does.

Perri Green, Los Angeles, California

So the 60+ mass graves was not enought to take Saddam from power? So the childrens prison was ok with you? Saddam was one of the biggest human rights violators in history, nobody can dispute this and all you care about is Bush's speech?

Remember that this is the CIA that Clinton dismantled in the 90's. This is the same CIA that was not allowed to use 'human intellegence' from the field because of the Clinton administration.

It kills me that this is all you care about. The number of soldiers that have died in combat during this war dont even total the number lost in all of military last year due to accidents alone.

When Bush Sr. began to move troops to ready for the 1st Gulf War, Saddam moved all of his planes to Syria or Iran. He did this because he knew that they were no match for our Air Force and would be distroyed. Moving them kept them from being destroyed. This is know information. What makes you think that he would not have moved his WMD? Are you that nieve?

No your just against the Bush administration at all costs. Its very obvious. So his speech didnt end up being totally true. Get over it and remember to teach your daughter that oral sex is not sex. Remember to teach your kids that the economy is much more important than security.

I would much rather take care of the evil in the world during my lifetime than that of my kids.

My whole point is with so much in the world to report on I'm lost as to why these news agencies keep spending so much time on this matter. It's been covered, we all are quite aware of it, now lets move on.

cwilli wrote:

"So the 60+ mass graves was not enought to take Saddam from power? So the childrens prison was ok with you? Saddam was one of the biggest human rights violators in history, nobody can dispute this and all you care about is Bush's speech? "

Josef Stalin was THE biggest human rights violator in history. Did we head for Moscow after we got done with Hitler?

Did we invade Cambodia to get rid of the Khmer Rouge?

Chechnya. We gonna stick our noses into that mess?

China? Indonesia? Cuba? El Salvador?

If we're going to begin invading countries based on their leaders' record on human rights, we'd probably better get the draft going.

Boy, I'm sure glad that weenie in Iraq is gone, because now at least we know that there aren't no Human Rights violations going on anymore. It's not like the Shiites are running around killing people for running movie theaters and liquor stores or anything.

cwilli wrote:

"It kills me that this is all you care about. The number of soldiers that have died in combat during this war dont even total the number lost in all of military last year due to accidents alone."

Last time I checked, we'd lost more than in the first gulf war. Got numbers from all those accidents last year?

cwilli wrote:

"When Bush Sr. began to move troops to ready for the 1st Gulf War, Saddam moved all of his planes to Syria or Iran. He did this because he knew that they were no match for our Air Force and would be distroyed. Moving them kept them from being destroyed. This is know information. What makes you think that he would not have moved his WMD? Are you that nieve?"

No. Are you that "nAive"?

Aircraft are one thing. Do you seriously think, for one moment, that Iran, Syria, or any other country are gonna let someone like Saddam come in with a few thousand tons of mustard gas to stow that will immediately make their country a target?
They really didn't care about him THAT much.

cwilli wrote:

"No your just against the Bush administration at all costs".

Only when it is blatantly misleading and dishonest.

And, for the record, I am a Republican, and incidentally I voted for Bob Dole over Bill Clinton. Nice try, though.

cwilli wrote:

"So his speech didnt end up being totally true. Get over it......."

That sums you up pretty well right there. Don't worry about truth, our government doesn't need to be accountable, or even truthful, to the people that elect them.

You just keep waving the flag and stay in step. Lace up the boots and bury your head a little deeper in the sand if it's getting a little too loud out here.

"Boy, I'm sure glad that weenie in Iraq is gone, because now at least we know that there aren't no Human Rights violations going on anymore. It's not like the Shiites are running around killing people for running movie theaters and liquor stores or anything."

Oh I see. So the hundreds of dead women and children are ok with you. After all people die all the time. No reason to stop it anywhere if you cant stop it all, right. So we might as well not have a fire or police department. I mean after all we cant stop all the crimes or all the fires in the world then why stop any of them. You probably the type of person to drive by someone with a broke down car too, huh. Cant help everyone so why bother.

"Last time I checked, we'd lost more than in the first gulf war. Got numbers from all those accidents last year?"

My numbers are real. I dont have to prove it to you. Yea how about I do the research for you.

"Aircraft are one thing. Do you seriously think, for one moment, that Iran, Syria, or any other country are gonna let someone like Saddam come in with a few thousand tons of mustard gas to stow that will immediately make their country a target?
They really didn't care about him THAT much."

Yes I do. He has a ton of money. There was a pipeline of Oil found going right into Syria. They were smugeling Oil into Syria who in turn sold if for them. Odd how many terrorists came over from Syria to fight the United States early in the war. Boy, your are nieve....

"And, for the record, I am a Republican, and incidentally I voted for Bob Dole over Bill Clinton. Nice try, though."

Dont flatter yourself. I dont care who you voted for or what you call yourself, a spade is a spade.

"That sums you up pretty well right there. Don't worry about truth, our government doesn't need to be accountable, or even truthful, to the people that elect them."

You are not a very good judge of character either. I am tired of hearing about the stupid 16 words in his speech. If that is the worst thing this President does than he has done better than most.

"You just keep waving the flag and stay in step. Lace up the boots and bury your head a little deeper in the sand if it's getting a little too loud out here."

Whatever dude. Bush will get 4 more years, Iraqi's will be free and I will enjoy the life I have made in this country, still waiving my flag. I love this country. If thats my head in the sand, then so be it. At least people like you dont run the show.

Can't agree more with lurker.
Funny I had not seen this post.

I think the point goes as follow. If this war was about replacing an evil dictactor that had little means of defending himself... Well that's what should have been said.
There is this country. Its leader is evil. People in his country hate him. They won't die for him. The army is poor. The country is full of oil so it could pay an occupation army. We hope to build a democracy there that would be an example for the region and trigger many changes in the region.

The problem with lying is that if Bush lied to the world about irak's WMD, how are we to trust him about helping a real democracy to appear in the country ? That's the real problem.
Nobody would care about these 16 words if they were not a sign that may be the democracy is not the real aim either.
May be the USA just want bases for their army to control the region, or they want to destroy the OPEP, or they want more oil contracts...

I mean it's not like lying because you don't want to admit you cheated your wife, I mean this is not related to your job as a president.

Frankly, I hope this world will get another 4 years of BUsh. Stupid and right winger as he is he will bring the world close to destruction, we will get the biggest economic depression ever and he will make hoover appear as a man with common sense.
Meanwhile we'll prepare the backlash.

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