From Radio Free Europe
Two girls have been expelled from their school on the outskirts of Paris for wearing Muslim head scarves. It's the latest move in a debate over whether wearing head scarves in public schools represents a breach of the country's century-old separation of religion and state.
Prague, 13 October 2003 (RFE/RL) -- Two French sisters, 18-year-old Lila and 16-year-old Alma Levy, were suspended at the end of September from their high school in the northern suburbs of Paris after refusing to remove their traditional Muslim dress.
A disciplinary board meeting on 10 October decided to expel the two students after they refused to comply with a dress code banning "ostentatious" religious symbols in French schools. The sisters were wearing head scarves that covered everything but their faces, as well as long tunics that hid the remainder of their bodies.
Alma and Lila maintain they were not flaunting their religion. Their father, who describes himself as an atheist Jew, characterized the board's decision as "academic apartheid" and is promising to launch an appeal.
Michel Tubiana, president of the Paris-based Human Rights League, calls the move a defeat for dialogue and secularism. "These young girls were following all classes, which is essential for us. And despite the fully detestable meaning of the scarf [at school], [wearing it] comes under their freedom of conscience only. I think that those who decided this expulsion have forgotten that the only way to make things evolve is precisely the teaching given by the republic's school system," Tubiana said.
Worn by some Muslim women as a sign of modesty, the head scarf -- or "hijab" in Arabic -- has become a sensitive issue in France. Mouloud Aounit, head of the antiracist Movement Against Racism and for Friendship Between Peoples (MRAP), says the expulsions point out what he called the "Islamophobia" currently reigning across France. Lila and Alma, he said, are not Islamic radicals.
However, Agence France Presse quoted Remi Duloquin, educational counselor at the school, as describing the girls as "militants" and saying their presence upsets the balance inside the school. The school's student body is made up largely of the children of Muslim immigrants. About 15 other young girls wear a more revealing head scarf without the accompanying tunic.
France's principle of separation of religion and state bars the display of any religious symbols in state schools. And Richard Serero stresses that secularity is not negotiable. He is first vice president of the Paris-based International League Against Racism and Anti-Semitism (LICRA).
"LICRA's position is the republican law -- secularity, full secularity, and only secularity. No exception. No head scarves at school. No religious signs at school. It's crystal clear," Serero said.
In practice, however, school authorities across the country decide themselves on a case-by-case basis whether to implement the rule. There have been expulsions of Muslim girls wearing head scarves before, but the current case has raised the heat under a national French commission mulling whether to recommend a tightening of the rules on the issue. The panel is due to report back to President Jacques Chirac by the end of the year.
To some advocates of tougher laws, head scarves are perceived as a provocation. Jacques Myard is a member of the ruling conservative UMP coalition in the French National Assembly. "In our schools, there have been no signs of religions of any kind for a century now," he said. "It has been just for a few years that it has been an attempt by [some] Muslims to try to impose the head scarf to show the other people that they are Muslims."
The Human Rights League's Tubiana, however, said tightening the law would put France in contradiction with its constitution and its international commitments to protecting freedom of religious beliefs. Besides, he noted, such a move would further stigmatize the French Muslim community. "In reality, the daily wearing of any religious sign is not targeted, but only the Muslim head scarf. So a law would be totally inappropriate," Trubiana said.
Others warn that a tougher law would only boost support for the Islamist fringe. France, traditionally a Roman Catholic country, has Europe's largest Muslim minority, with about 5 million faithful.
Last month in Germany, the Federal Constitutional Court ruled that the Baden-Wurttemberg state was wrong to deny a job to an Afghan-born teacher who was wearing a head scarf. The country's highest court argued that the state has no laws banning such displays. The court said the state could ban head scarves if it passes a law to that effect, prompting a number of German states to announce plans to do so.
Posted by Muddy at October 14, 2003 05:22 AM | TrackBackPeople say America is so bad? Seems France needs to practice that good old fashioned Peace, Love and Harmony they keep pushing on the rest of us. :-P
Posted by: muddy at October 14, 2003 05:26 AMInterresting...ok, DF, what do you think about THIS?
Posted by: mrs. muddy at October 14, 2003 02:30 PMwell it's pretty simple, we don't pray at school, we don't mess religion and knowledge, religion and politics, our political system is far superior to yours.
basically.
:-)
I think we're the only country to have stated that clearly that church and state have to be seperated.
Now there is a problem with the veil, the debate being is wearing this veil an ostentacious show of ones muslim obedience. And there is the fact that though there are plenty of private christian schools there are none muslime ones, bet some will appear with public fundings of course (but limited)
The all story is very much in line with what France keeps hammering you, keep religion out of politics especially when dealing with the middle east...
replace veil by headscarf (I translated directly the french word "voile")
I wondered if you guys read the article or just the headline ... The article is pretty clear about the debate and I don't see why I should comment on it.
Posted by: DF at October 16, 2003 07:38 AMIsn't their father an athiest? So why would he send them to a private school anyway. Even if the girls are religious then the fact that they're muslim would not fit into the private Christian school curriculum. The girls however, according to the article that was posted, (I wonder if YOU read the article WE posted and not just the headline:P) they said they weren't wearing it for religious perposes. So I assume maybe they were just wearing it for the fact that they are Muslim.
Just out of curiousity, if an American would attend school there and decided to wear a shirt with the American flag on it...would they be orderd to take it off or face expulsion or could they just go on about their merry ol' way?
Posted by: mrs. muddy at October 16, 2003 10:14 AMOh, yes, I know what I forgot. Do you have to pay to attend the private schools over there just like you do here? If so, then maybe their father can't afford to send them anyway. I know over here, it can be very expensive and unfortunately, that is one of the reasons why our child does not attend them.
Posted by: mrs. muddy at October 16, 2003 10:19 AM"our political system is far superior to yours."
Like I said before- Stuipd French
On another note- Why do you Frenchies think you are so much better than us Americans? You really think a socialist way of thinking is the best political system. Well while you and the rest of Europe drift back into the stone age- we'll progress and move even further ahead of you guys. Not to say our political system is perfect- because it's not..or that it's the best system in the world because thast not true either.
Now back to the article- as I am unaware of a constitution in France- I will only argue what makes sense logicly about these poor Muslim girls.
"The school's student body is made up largely of the children of Muslim immigrants. About 15 other young girls wear a more revealing head scarf without the accompanying tunic." This was taken from the article posted by Muddy-
So were these two children singled out - because the French are scared the Muslims/Islams will invaid them> or over run their country ?? ( and i doubt we'll come to the rescue a 3rd time.)
"France's principle of separation of religion and state bars the display of any religious symbols in state schools. And Richard Serero stresses that secularity is not negotiable"- So tunics make them evil and a non revealing scarf- the 15 other students are wearing their religious clothing- again the French are idiots.
""It has been just for a few years that it has been an attempt by [some] Muslims to try to impose the head scarf to show the other people that they are Muslims."" - acques Myard is a member of the ruling conservative UMP coalition in the French National Assembly-
Will the French really suffer from seeing a Muslim- I think this shows how close minded- and prejiduce the French are- Part of education in my opinion is to become more open minded. Making everyone a clone in school does not help education- it takes away from it.
""In reality, the daily wearing of any religious sign is not targeted, but only the Muslim head scarf. So a law would be totally inappropriate," Trubiana said"
big shocker- here is a French making sense.
Posted by: kevin at October 16, 2003 02:59 PMwhat do you want me to say. There's a debate going on. The aim is having the children respect the freedom of opinion and study in peace. Some people feel that wearing a scarf and a tunic is an "ostentatious religious sign. So they say that since they can not force the children to take them out (which would be another solution ) they ban them, until they remove that sign.
Of course the problem is that some muslims feel prejudiced because it is happening to them now. And of course it is happening to them now also because people are afraid of radical muslim movement and rightly so.
But the law has applied in the past to ban people showing signs of christian religion. Fact is in France people do not really believe in god go to church and the like.
I don't know the case, and can not assess if what the father and the girl say in the article is accurate. So I can not assess if this particular ban is fair or unfair.
I can only adress the general case.
And before you go on ranting, please remember that in many countries there are school uniforms.
And children get expelled if they do not wear it or even cheat with it (replace socks, decorate it and the like)
So I don't see why you make such a big deal about it.
Now about the american flag there would not be any problem. Lots have anyway.
But imagine the situation in the middle of the Iraki war. Some wear Shirts with USA, and some with ben Laden. The school will probably make sure that both signs are taken off in order to avoid confrontation in a place that is to be devoted to study and not political or religious activity.
Now for kevin, if you're not aware I'have a 50 bucks (how do you say that ?) bet (yes !) with ... uh ... Ah yes Cwilli... that the US GDP will be lower by august 2007 than it was by august 2003.
My opinion on the US growth is : it's easy to grow when you grow on debt. And that debt will have to be paid one day.
The bet about 2007 might be risky. The prediction of a major breakdown of the US economy in the coming decade is not. Especially with Bush jr in command.
Just remember, France, a hell of a lot of Americans are reading this article.
Posted by: Moonraker2 at October 19, 2003 12:04 PM"and can not assess if what the father and the girl say in the article is accurate" yet you can assume all US media you hear in Iraq is truthful although you are not there?
And DF- where will your "dollar" be ? prolly lower than ours ;)
From cia.gov who keeps track of such numbers-
France's GDP $1.54 trillion (2002 est.)
US GDP $10.4 trillion (2002 est.)
euros per US dollar - 1.0626
and our money is worth more than yours- i'll take that bet-
And lets talk some more about your economy-
A 35 hour work week to open more jobs- hmmm doesnt sound to good for your economy
Your unemployment rate is also 9 percent... a hell of a lot bigger than our 5 percent
so dont go toting about how much better your government is. Just take a look at other socialist countires- where are they? are they superpowers- are they technilogicly advanced- moving forward- no they are stuck in the mud- just as France and it's labor strikes are and will continue to be in until capitalism takes full control and your government lets go of busness to the people.
DF this is where i must disagree with you. By wearing a headscark a muslim woman is not necessarily espousing her religion, be it at school or anywhere. Shall we also ban crosses worn at the neck? If veils oppress women should we then discourage women to become nuns as well?
I must say that there are many more IMORTANT battles with regards to feminism that France and Germany should focus on. The problem is that although France may have a secular state, leading to secular education which i think is terrif, it no less ignores that the students attending the school come from varying backgrounds which cannot be merely removed when entering a state school. I find nothing offensive in women wearing the veil. Many of these girls do not merely do it out of parental guidance but for many it is an individual choice.
an "ostentatious religious sign" coud be anything. A cross pendant, a star of David pendant, wearing a sweater with christmas decor all alludes to a non-secular lifestyle does it not?
And the argument that the veil is a sign of oppression is a weak one as so are mini skirts, silicone implants and tight clothing on women which only act as a means in which to objectify the woman wearing these articles. I see no ban on this.
Well, have a nice day. have to right a paper on heidegger...oooh fun! (yeah right) and Kevin, rather than ATTACK the person you debate against why not try to make some concise and valid arguments against their position rather than france bash which is what everyone mainly does, except for Muddy (occasionally).
Posted by: Les at October 31, 2003 12:26 PMoops didnt spell right like write
ahhh, 3 hrs of sleep....
[quote]rather than france bash which is what everyone mainly does, except for Muddy (occasionally).[end quote]
haha.. I'll take that as a complement.
I could not agree with your post more concerning the fact that a veil is no sign of oppression when compared to the myriad of things women do to themselves these days. Even though as a man I may find some of the things women do eye catching, as a human being it's sad.
As a father I'm far more sensitive to the way we men objectify and dishonor women than I was when I was single.
A veil or headscarf is covering up things. I'm all for that, we show too much in our modern society.
Posted by: muddy at October 31, 2003 04:29 PM"As a father I'm far more sensitive to the way we men objectify and dishonor women than I was when I was single"
It's Amazing the ways children change lives isn't it? It's times like these that I remember why I married you - xoxo :-) Well, that and the fact that no other woman in her right mind would put up with you....ha, ha, ha....burn!:-)
Posted by: mrs. muddy at October 31, 2003 11:23 PMI don't understand what they are trying to accomplish. They should respect every individuals choice of religion. It seems that the sikhs fought in wars with turbans but now the children can't go to school with headscarfs. It makes no sense to me.
gary
Posted by: Harp at February 21, 2004 06:45 PM