muddysmind.com

I must say, your statement:
"Well, with the except of a few moronic, ignorant individuals, they are. These days, they suffer from the oppression of a cycle of welfare dependency, from a culture of inner-city violence and gangs"

..is quite offensive, especially in this context. You may want to seriously consider changing your terminology.

You don't have to be moronic, ignorant or insignifgant(few) to be a victim of the institutionalized racism that still shapes the social structure of USA(how many balck friends do you really have? how many white friends do they have?). Until this changes there will not be real progress toward racial equality.

You go on say that the cause of non-white American oppression is a "cycle of welfare dependency, from a culture of inner-city violence and gangs"

These are all only symptoms of economic racism in action. Poverty and the inability to get gainful work tend to lead to things like welfare and crime. It's misguided to blame the victims of this system they were born into. There are systems (credit ratings for ex.) in this country that prevent most poor people from escaping poverty.

The irony of Bush honoring MLK is incredible

the tip of the iceberg starts here:

BUSH:
Rarely interacts with "unwashed masses" - never seen without his private armed detail.
152 EXECUTIONS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS - 0 STAYS OF EXECUTION - ALMOST ALL WERE BLACK
Since 1973, over 80 people have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence... none in Texas.
Organized global deception to rob trillions from the American taxpayer and dish them out to his backers in the form of no-bid and fixed-bid Defense contracts.
Invaded at least 2 countries half way arround earth while neglecting domestic issues like race disparity. Thousands of Iraqis and hundreds of American troops are now dead.

MLK:
A man of the people.
A Chrsitian Reverend who devoted his life to prevent killing and injustice and to promote peace.
Organized peaceful civil protest of government institutionalized racism and militarism.
On Hoover's list (but who wasn't).
Very possibly killed by friends of Bush's father
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WFPonMLK.html

but i digress...

The true reason for Bush's Atlanta visit is in the 7th paragraph of the article you linked:
"As Bush arrived, the crowd booed and chanted "Bush go home!" He placed a wreath on King's grave before heading to a $2,000-a-plate fund-raiser in Atlanta."

I was saying that moronic and ignorant people are the racists and bigots. Institutionalized racism? Sorry, I can't think of one institution in that believe int he genetic superiority of one race over another, except organizations specifically for such causes.

What's wrong with the death penalty? If you ask me, murderers should die the way their victims died. But that's just me.

MLK marched for the civil rights on blacks. Particularly the blacks of the south who were mistreated under southern governments still bitter over the civil war.

Never seen without his armed detail? Gee, wonder why...well for one it's required by law and 2, because alot of people want to kill him? Don't doubt that if Dr. King could have found someone to protect him he would have, unfortunately everyone around Dr. King who could have protected him, hated him.

Never said the wreath laying was Bush's primary reason for the visit. I just said he was doing it.

Economic racism? That's an oxymoron. Thomas Jefferson said it best: "I'm a great believer in luck. I find that the harder I work, the more I have of it." These people are in poverty mostly because they choose to live the way they do. Most could get a job, whether it be at McDonalds or doing landscaping, if they really wanted it. Instead these kids in the inner-city of Atlanta choose to make babies, sell drugs (which I think should be perfectly legal, but it isn't so therefore it's not wise), use drugs, kill each, and forsake all possible educational benefit. Dr. King, would probably be sickened to see that as he (along with other great black men like Booker T. Washington, whose granddaughter I have the pleasure of knowing, and GEorge Washington Carver) had to fight to be educated, who made the effort to learn everything they could!

'Course what would I know about it? I only was in a position from the time I was 9 until I was well into high school to deal with people who live in poverty (white, black or otherwise.) There is no racism to it. They is culturism. The culture of the inner-city and the ghetto is cyclic dependency. The culture of the suburbs and rural area's is education and hardwork. Wonder why one prospers, and the other continually depends ont he government? I go to a school with guys who broke out of the cycle. White and black. The white guys were harassed throughout school for actually caring about their future. The black guys would be called uncle toms, and be accused of trying to be white. I have run into the same thing in the marine corps.

How did they end up this way? Well it goes like this "Here, you're out of work, so we'll just give you someone else's money until you find another job. Oh, you had another baby you can't afford? Well, we'd better help yout ake care of that baby." It is called rewarding irresponsibility.

Oh Skywalker,

Consider that the AP reporter was referring to 700 people who were there earlier in the day to protest Bush, the 70 people you saw were not protesters, they were likely honoring Dr. King.

I apologize- as i re-read your original post about 5 times, I realized that the "moronic, ignorant" bit of hatespeech was directed at someone other than "they". However, you may still want to edit the post because an English teacher would back up my original assessment.

To remind you of the many systems of oppression that perpetuate racial inequity, let me get you started. There is race bias in the Banking industry, Education systems, Criminal justice systems, insurance industry etc. Race bias is in the very fiber of our society (salad bowl vs. melting pot).

Whats wrong with the dealth penalty is the 50 years of data showing how it is administered inconsistantly depending on the race of the killer and the race of the victim... that and the fact that many times in America criminals are later found to be wrongly convicted.

Thomas Jefferson was a slaveowner. That's what i call luck!
Do you honestly live in a reality where you believe people would CHOOSE poverty? The same systems of oppression cause disadvantaged single women to end up trying to raise children alone on a McDonalds wage with no healthcare. These people don't choose to be on welfare or in low-wage jobs, that is just what is left over for them. They don't choose single-parenthood... Given the choice i'd say most would choose to move in with Aunt Viv and Uncle Phil in Bel Air like Will Smith did. Unfortunately, everyone can't be Will Smith.

"Wonder why one prospers, and the other continually depends ont he government?" - the only prospering being done lately is by the top 0.01%, repo-men and arms dealers. The American " hard worker" is being saddled with debt, his own and that of the Fed.

I am not surprised that you are a product of economic oppression as well. The setting leads to a necessary oversimplification of the issue - ignorance in response to fear of different groups, as a coping mechanism. A feeling of beeing totally diferent from your peers due to race/culture when in fact you live in the same place and have similar economic conditions. Some people can let hard environments convince them that "what's the use in trying". This is called Depression by psychologists but the economic definition of depression wouldnt be so far off either.

"The white guys were harassed throughout school for actually caring about their future. The black guys would be called uncle toms, and be accused of trying to be white"

This is a perfect example of a racist social construct that clearly reflects the systems of socio-economic oppression in USA. As you say, you saw this same type of behaviour throughout society (in school as well as in the corps). When we look at a statement like this and ask "Why is this so? Why would people would believe this or behave like this? How did this come about?" we can begin to see the racial inequity spread by stereotypes, fear(fear of questioning 'values') and propaganda throughout our society, culture and media.

All progress is precarious, and the solution of one problem brings us face to face with another problem.
Martin Luther King Jr., 'Strength to Love,' 1963

The good neighbor looks beyond the external accidents and discerns those inner qualities that make all men human and, therefore, brothers.
Martin Luther King Jr., 'Strength to Love,' 1963

Ten thousand fools proclaim themselves into obscurity, while one wise man forgets himself into immortality.
Martin Luther King Jr.

Dr. Kings' message was the message of Jesus, one of unjudging love for all humankind.

"My solution? Stop voting for people who oppose reforming welfare, and schools...and a bunch of other policies that don't help the problem. That's what Dr. King would have wanted. He would not have wanted this sad state."

how would the republican party help blacks? by the way, how many black republicans are in house? 0. did you say 0 people in the house of representitives are black and republican? why arnt there any? maybe it has to with "trent lott" ambience that resides within the grand ol party. going all the way back nixon and his "southern strategy".

what legislation has the republican party proposed in the last 5 years that could dramitcally help blacks? giving them a $1000 voucher for private schools? that would help, but it wont help the kids that 3 grade levels behinde and wouldnt be allowed into the religious schools. oh yea, the only type of private school that you can take $1000 to is a religious, usually catholic school.

"Thomas Jefferson said it best: "I'm a great believer in luck. I find that the harder I work, the more I have of it."

very ironic you quote thomas jefferson. i guess it is great luck when you have 200 people and have them work for you for free while raping them.

Institutionalized racism?

maybe the reason why people in the suberbs are so much better off is because between the 1930-70s, the department of housing and urban development gave tens of billions away in low intrest loans for people to buy homes. blacks only got a small % of this. the areas whites lived were given loans, and the inner citys where blacks and latinos were was drawn in red and denied. this is where the term "red lining" comes from. this ability for millions of whites to purchase homes set up an economic basis where they could build wealth and do things. almost every study shows that if you have a home, youll earn much more in a lifetime than someone who doesnt.

the same thing with the rural areas. farmers were giving billions of dollars in "farm aid". black farmers wernt giving anything and denied. about 6 or 7 years ago the deparment of agriculture was sued for denying farm aid to black farms.

so yes, institutional racism has played a huge part in the way america and its ghettos are now.

Instead of posturing like an hyporcite on Dr King's tomb ---to spin the average US TV-addict & get some votes (unless a new voter-cleansing programme is implemented by Jeb I, Duke of Florida)--- George II The Appointed would be well inspired to drop some tears on innocent Iraqi children killed to topple the saddamite tyrant to grasp Iraqi oil.

bennyhill 1978:

The only thing I'd like to comment on is the paragraph you wrote about:

"Do you honestly live in the reality where people Choose to live in poverty.....Given the choice, I'm sure most would choose to move in w/Aunt Viv....."

Well, *I* DO live in the reality where people choose to live in poverty (or close enough)....because *I* was one of them! No, I did NOT take advantage of the system and NO, I did NOT want to be in my posistion. BUT because of the poor choices Muddy and I made at the time, we, in essence DID choose to live in a bad situation.

Muddy and I Chose (how should I put this tactfully) to live an active "intimate" lifestyle out of marriage. No one held a gun to our head...we just "couldn't" stay away from one another (sure, I guess everyone could relate in some shape or form to that) but anyway, Muddy and I chose not to be responsible with that way of life (though we knew better) and even though I was inexperienced in those areas, I knew that hey, "you play with fire..." well, you know. Anyway, because of our chosen action, we invited our first child into the world.

Yes, I could have chosen to end my baby's life but that thought honestly NEVER crossed my mind. Besides, It would have been hypocritical for me to exercise MY "freedom to choose" by taken my baby's choice away (not that I judge other women for the choices THEY make because I know It couldn't POSSIBLY be an easy decission). I had other choices though. We though of giving our baby up for adoption...but after thinking long and hard about things, Muddy asked me to marry him. We had talked about marriage before - tons of times. We knew that eventually, we would be married...as I knew He was the one for me...But we were NOT ready financially at that time. Heck, both of us STILL lived at home w/ our parents because we couldn't afford to move out.

Do you know how hard it is to be 24/25 years of age and ask your Mommy for money so you can pay rent on a rundown appartment (that only cost $350 as it was) so that you can pay it ON TIME! Do you know how heartbreaking it is to know that the ONLY reason your child is wearing clothing and shoes is because your Mommy supplied those things for them! It feels HORRIBLE! To know that your an adult wanting very much to have a better life for you and your family...knowing that by your OWN choices, you have NO one to blame but yourself! Knowing that as an adult (who should be completely indepent) you still have to rely on mommy and daddy to help you out. NOT once, not twice but quite a few time at that! I HATED my circumstance!!!!! However, Muddy and I created our own Hell.

We even had to go on WIC (women, infants and children) which is a government organization geered to help needy families. I was ashamed! Not because I thought I was better than everyone else but because *I* put myself there and ALLOWED myself to be dependant!

BTW, as a side note....once I no longer needed WIC, I actually called them and told them I would NOT be attending classes anymore. They had mandatory classes (at least they did back then) were you HAD to show up for an educational class (about the "best" food to give your child ...suprisingly, BTW, the classes were NOT about HOW to use condoms or other forms of birth control to keep you from increasing your family. Some mothers had 3 or 4 children there.) If you did NOT show up for these classes they held once every 3months, they automatically cut off your WIC...however, I do believe you could apply for it again, but I don't remember.

Anyway, Muddy had gotten a new job and I didn't need WIC anymore..so I didn't go back to the classes. Low and behold though, I still recieved a delivery. I told the guy to take it back that I didn't need it. He said he couldn't. So I called the office and told them. They said they would send someone to get it...they did not. The next month I got another delivery. I told them again. They said they couldn't send anyone. I told them I had used NONE of the delivery because I did not feel I had a right to it anymore and that *I* would bring it to them. THAT I did. Ok, so the last paragraph was completely beside the point but I thought It made a great side note.

Look the bottom line is, YES, there are thousands of people (of ALL races) who were MUCH worse off than we were but, we were the ones living our life and this is the experience WE have. YES, I know that it takes all kind of people with all kinds of circumstances and believe me, I know EVERYONE has a different story but that IS ours.

Sorry for the LOONNNG story.

AND oh, again, BTW, even If we DID have an "Aunt Viv or uncle Phil...NO, NO,NO,NO, I would have NEVER moved in with them (as a matter of fact, I personally became very pissed off when you said that) I want and would ALWAYS rather stand on my own two feet, thank you. Not that it's shameful to ask for help (we all need help every now and then) But I for one REFUSE to be "taken care of"!

Mrs. Muddy,

You certainly are full of American pride. Do you see the irony in refusing to be taken care of while at the same time allowing the government to saddle trillions of debt on your children in order to "take care of you" security-wise? This same national debt is part of the reason you were once in a tight economic situation and the amount spent on Human services is dwarfed by the incredible, unprecidented "defense" spending spree we see before us under Bush II. I am proud to live in a country that was able to help you in your time of need. It doesn't surprise me to know that the beureaucracy of the system took several months to realize you didnt want their help anymore, just imagine how many people they have to help in USA and then consider the stressed out people working for WIC. If the government is not taking care of us then remind me again why do they exist at all?

"Do you honestly live in a reality where you believe people would CHOOSE poverty? "

Absolutly. There are SO many program that I pay for out of my check every other week that I am hard pressed to find one situation that someone cannot be helped out of today. You give me someone on welfare and I will show you someone who can get a free ride to college. You show me someone who is hungry and living on the street and I will show you a shelter that will feed and help them. Not to mention assign them a government case worker who will find them help.

Its all about personal motivation. You cant honestly tell me that if a person is motivated to achieve his/her goals that they could not pull themselves out of poverty. This happens every day. This being that case I honestly believe that someone in poverty must not want out of poverty bad enough.

Please provide me one situation that someone cannot be helped out of that you would consider "poverty".

Benny:

Oh, trust me, I understand how stressed out the people in WIC, not to mention the welfare system, and so on - must be. To be in a position to want to make lives better to just see it taken advantage of time and time again (though not everyone does). There are MANY loop holes that even super glue couldn't close :-/

"Do you see the irony in refusing to be taken care of while at the same time allowing the government to saddle trillions of debt on your children in order to "take care of you" security wise"

Though I understand what your saying, the whole national debt is quite sickening BUT though I do believe in smaller government, I also believe that the few jobs the federal government should have is in protecting me and the rest of the U.S. through it's security defense. I don't mind my tax dollars going for that at all. Not to say there haven't been bad choices made on their part because I'm sure there has been as with EVERY administration. Even though I do believe security should come first and foremost, I do not believe that everything else should be abandond either.

As far as the whole picture of the National debt is concerned (for we all know MANY things contribute to it) I've pretty much given up on listening to both Democrates AND Republicans. In some cases, both sides seem to come up with interresting ideas on how to "shrink" it...and some of it actually starts making just a little bit of sence....until they put their ideas to action. Sometimes they seem to scratch the surface on "making things seem better" but in the end, the things that both sides do is like putting a tiny band aid on a gun shot wound....nice try - but not enough. Of course, I don't expect things to "disappear" overnight either.

The agrivating thing is (and maybe I'm wrong - wouldn't be the first time :-P ) It's like trying to patch up a leaky dam. One person has concrete and is patching it up. Then another person comes along, pushing the first out of the way and they try to fix it with just cement. Then yet ANOTHER person comes along pushing their way through with yet another substance to try out (could you guess I don't know anything about dams? Better not put me in charge of fixing a leak:-D hehehe). All the while, someone is alway pushing everyone else away just to get their turn. And who knows, one of those solutions just might work in the long run (I doubt it but hey, you never know) but nothing gets accomplished because they're always "pushed out of the way". But hey, maybe I've got the wrong impression.

I think we need ONE group of people with ONE idea in mind to work on this thing for as many years as it takes no matter what administration is in place. Hey, what's Ross Perot doing:-) Just a thought.

cwilli,

Poverty is defined by the US census a a family of 5 living on less than $22,007/yr
http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/threshld/thresh02.html

Since by definition poverty is when you are unable do do anything with your finances but go further into debt,
I would say everyone living below the poverty line is in danger of never being helped out of the cycle of opression.
more poverty data here, including a breakdown by race:
http://ferret.bls.census.gov/macro/032003/pov/new01_075.htm

What is poverty? A pretty good explaination is here: http://www.worldbank.org/poverty/mission/up1.htm

It may help you sleep better to believe that the victims of poverty are to blame for poverty or to think that any signifigant amount of your taxes actually goes to helping those in need, but that is as inaccurate as saying a woman dressed in slutty clothing is to blame for being raped. If there is plenty of money out there for free college, aid, etc. then why does Bush need $3.6bn federal funds for 'faith based' charity? http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040115/pl_afp/us_politics_bush_040115193416

Are you saying that black people are in poverty because you believe they as a race lack motivation? There may be truth to this.. but i don't think it is due to their race. Perhaps it is the hundreds of years of living as an underclass or a Media culture that marginalizes and segregates Black culture (many Blacks see Pro Sports or Rap as their only hope for escape from poverty) that have discouraged and Depressed many and helped to put so many in prison. "Get Rich or Die Tryin'" by 50-Cent was the number one album in 2003. The title of that album depicts the only 2 options presented to people born into a situation like 50-Cent. He did indeed get rich, but the price he paid was 9 bullet wounds and a job for a corporate record label that encourages him to perpetuate misguided vales of materialism, drug use, sexism and violence to those who live where he used to live.

Perhaps it is the Opression of a justice system that disporpotionately targets non-whites for prosecution. The US has the highest number of prisoners per capita of any Industrialized nation (inluding China) most prisoners are not white and most are in prison for nonviolent drug offenses. http://alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17515 - better prison data is availibl from the DOJ.

While some communities provide soup kitches to homeless the supply doesn't come close to filling the need. There are over 76,000 children in poverty in USA right now. (http://www.census.gov/hhes/hlthins/liuc02.html) It is complete fabrication that someone on welfare can get a free ride to college... maybe a ride past campus in the back of a cop car.

In fact one of the first things Bush II did in office was to disqulify millions from financial aid (Stafford federal student loans) effectively reducing the number of incoming college freshmen thereby justifying tuition hikes at even State subsidized schools (OSU for ex. has raised tuition from 12% to %17 in each of the years since he took office).

The drug war is an example of a system that keeps the poor poor. Today you are inelligible for student loans if you have even a misdemeanor drug offense on record.

There is a 3 step process of enslaving an underclass: Depress, Oppress and Posess.

Mrs. Muddy,

I agree, programs like WIC are very much like band-aids on bullet wounds. They provide little real help while obfuscating the real problems of racism, economic disparity and unequal opportunity. Loop-holes in the system itself and 'pork-belly' additions to the laws creating these programs make sure most of the resources are wrapped up in the administration and there is plenty of 'perks' for the legislators involved and thier supporters. This is the American way of legislation as Jimmy Stewart showed us in Mr. Smith Goes to Washington (1939).

You seem to have some incorrect impressions of a couple think about the federal govt. First, the amount of federal jobs is anything but 'few'. Also, most of the trillions (with a T) are not going to average-joe federal workers/servicemen. In fact veteran benefits are shrinking and disappearing for many while Executives at companies like MCI, Brown&Root, Boeing etc. are seeing their cut of these bloated contracts dramaticaly skyrocket while simultaneously replacing US employees with foreign labor and applying for corporate welfare.

For years the Pentagon has controlled more than enough weaponry to exterminate all life on earth with boilogical/chemical/nuclear weapons. Why do we need more? Are we any safer at all? The excess debt already spent by Bush on the Global Domination Terror War is more than enough to fix Social Security for all working taxpayers. Bush's friends must not be taxpayers/Social Security investors because he hasn't allocated a dime to fixing SS.

At this point the strategy for the National Debt appears to be to make it as large as possible and now we are begining to see the dollar's value decline as result. The collateral that they put up on this debt was our SS numbers. Income tax alone isnt enough to pay the finance charges on loans so large... something's gotta give.

At this rate the dollar could become as weak as the peso, But dont worry, in his 5th term in office King George II may decide to cash out the debt by selling us off to the WTO as slaves (we are the collateral on these loans) before hopping on his rocket to Mars. :)

He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it
--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

One day we must come to see that peace is not merely a distant goal we seek, but that it is a means by which we arrive at that goal. We must pursue peaceful ends through peaceful means.
--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

We have flown the air like birds and swum the sea like fishes, but have yet to learn the simple act of walking the earth like brothers.
--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

Law and order exist for the purpose of establishing justice and when they fail in this purpose they become the dangerously structured dams that block the flow of social progress.
--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. 'Letter from Birmingham Jail' in Why We Can't Wait 1963.

Beny:

"The amount of federal jobs is anything but 'few'"

I know. Trust me, I know :-( I said that I believe in having a smaller government and that one of the few (though it still would not be 'few' but yet *fewer* than it is now) jobs they should have is our security. By security, I wasn't referring to weapons - not necessarily anyway - I was referring to our military and how we should make sure they (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines - and whoever else I may have missed :-D ) recieve (or continue to recieve) the finest training for any and everything. Including being well equipped w/ what ever weaponry and equipment they all may need to get the job done (whatever and where ever that may be) sufficiently. As long as our military is in top noched shaped...then yeah, I do feel safer. Not saying that bad things can't or won't ever happen anyway, ( that would not be realistic thinking) but it does make me feel better (and proud) knowing the military is standing ready to defend us.

You also mention a little bit on Social Security. Personally, I wouldn't be suprised if it were completely obliterated by the time I "grow up". Of course, it wouldn't suprise me one way or another. Social Security, though, is a very touchy subject for me. Though I have personally never collected SS in my life (well not directly anyway) I can tell you I want nothing to do with those thieves. Ok, yes, I know that whatever checks I would have comming to me from the SSA in the future would be out of the payment from my own tax dollars - give or take - but personally, I'd rather have all my tax dollars back now that has ever been taken out for the SSA and put it in another investment...but hey, that's just me.

"At this rate the dollar could become as weak as the peso..."

Well, what has a front/beginning has a back/end...the bigger the front the bigger the back.

"But don't worry, in his 5th term in office, King George II may decide to cash out the debt by selling us off to the WTO as slaves...."

Are you referring to Bush II? Silly boy, he can only serve 2 terms. (yes, I know you know that:-D). Besides, I thought we were ALREADY slaves to the WTO - so there's still time to change things? :-P

"...before hopping on his rocket to Mars."

Well, he sure as heck better dress warm. According to the special I watched the other day on the science channel (or maybe it was discovery), it can drop to 150 degrees BELOW zero!
Of course, other reports say anywhere between 120 - 180 degrees below. In any case, it's pretty damn cold :-) !!!!!

Mrs. Muddy, you truly are an amazing woman (if that is what you are, as I only know you by what you type). I can see why Muddy is so happy. You have a warm heart that unavoidably gravitates to the positive of any situation. You bring a softness to this whole agenda. Perhaps one might suggest this is why women be given more representation in most all areas of society. I hope you don't disagree with me Mrs. Muddy.

Well, fellows, I had promised my sanity that I would never again visit the chaotic lines of this forum, but alas, my will fails me.

I don't intend to comment much on this. You see, though I've been called a nigger by the parents of Laura G (a high-school sweet heart). It never really phased me. You see, her parents never even met me, they only knew that I was half jungle monkey. You see, my papa is a full jungle monkey...that makes me half jungle monkey. The fact that they weren't even qualified enough to stereotype me properly demonstrates the extant of their ignorance. Niggers are of course, porch monkeys. Also, I don't look foreign at all. By foreign, I mean Asian, African, Mexican, Arabic, or Redskin (if any exist). The closest I get suspected as foreign is Greek. But hey, it's within the technical bounds of Europe so most people tend to tolerate it.

So the topic of debate was sparked by the event of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday. And some have speculated or alluded to being qualified to know what it is like to “to be a Negro who decisions determine their ability to break out of the gutter” for the following reasons: (as far as I recall)

a. Some know black people.
b. Some know black people that have broken out and some that haven't.
c. Some know white people who have replicated the same types of events.
d. Some yourself may have been impoverished, or close to it. It's all relative.

These are pretty good qualifications. They would have a significant strategic advantage in such a debate over someone who didn't know any black people. But here is one qualification none of us have, at least not most of us who claim to have authoritative know how about the whole deal. And that is, most of us are not African American. Though some of us know black people, some have known them in poverty, and some of us have been close or in poverty, few of us in this debate have the qualification of being an African American who has been or has not been impoverished.

Cwilli, who would be better qualified to have an opinion about the floods of Bangladesh, someone who knows a few Bangalis? Or someone who is actually from there?

Skywalker, who do you think is better qualified to speak of prison life? Someone who's actually spent time in prison, or someone who has sent someone to prison?

So in this case, let's all invite the African Americans we know into this debate and see how they feel. Let's hear their side...that is if they aren't too cracked up to type.

And for those who may know these African Americans, I suggest we share our real names. Let each other know who we are if we are so certain our views are not archaic and down right prejudice.

Is anyone game?

BamBOOzLed:

1st of all, I hope this does not appear twice on this board. Muddy tried to "help" me do a spell check and HE lost MY post. The WHOLE thing! I was done too. I was NOT particularly happy. As a matter of fact, at this moment, one could say I'm a little tense. He will die for this later...when he least expects it, but we'll just keep that between us for now, K?:-P

2ndly: Yes, I am a woman....unless you know something about Muddy's sexual preference that I don't? If you DO know something then we need to have a serious talk hehehe:-D

3rdly: Wow! That has to be one of the sweetest complements I've ever recieve! Thank you:-) You've almost topped Muddy (oh, wait...I'm still mad at him...wouldn't want to compliment him right now. BTW, Muddy when you read this...I'm sticking my tongue out at you. Well, I guess every bit of grace that I had left just flew out the window:-P)

4thly: I don't really know what to say about your sweet hearts parents and their stupidity because Stupidity IS what we're looking at...ignorance is NO excuse anymore. I will also add that not only are they stupid, judgmental and prejudice (especially sence they NEVER even met you) but it also falls within the lines of the pathetic. I'm sorry you were made to deal with that. You deserve better treatment.

5th: What you are suggesting is quite unique, but unfortunately, you made me realize something. Have you ever been in a situation where your so much involved with something or someone in your life that you actually forget to HAVE a life? Well, right now, that's me:-/ I've spent soooo much time in the past years focused on being a stay at home mom (of course nothing is wrong with that) that I forgot to keep up with most of my personal life (other than with Muddy of course...and I don't like him anymore :-P). No, I'm not complaning...It's just the facts. Actually, I don't know whether to laugh or cry so I guess I'll just laugh. I mean, HOW can you forget about YOURSELF? After all, 'where ever you go, there YOU are'...isn't that the saying?:-P

Mrs. Muddy,

I am glad you enjoyed my compliments. While none of what I said was false, I am a womanizer, so be wary and don't give Muddy a hard time.

In response to your 5th comment, I think John Lennon says it best:

\x{201C}Life is what happening to you when you're busy making other plans.\x{201D}

The wisdom is to be able to distinguish real time what best comprises your life while simultaneously addressing that which needs to be planned for.

The same could be said about the environment in another article.

Mrs. Muddy, what you said about dedicating your life to your family is truly inspiring and you seemed to be a remarkable and dedicated woman. I recommend watching Monte Python's The Meaning of Life in regards to parenthood. If I were president, I would move for a 30 day work week, so the mothers and fathers who are interested in family values actually had more time to spend with their families, rather than working 3rd shift for 2 years, only to get laid off because some CEO can't honestly count their money.

Mrs. Muddy, Imagine a time when women were unable to have a say in how many children they were to have. Imagine a time when women were unable to get divorced from abusive husbands. Imagine a time when women were unable to vote. Imagine a place where women are still stoned (some of these places are Allies in the War against Terrorism). Women demonstrate more strength of our species then many would like us to believe (like Rush Limbaugh). On top of the 30 hour work week, I would advocate an official mother's day for each child born. I sure as hell aren't tough enough to have a dome the size of a babies to squirt out of my anus. I think many men fear this inherent strength in women, and I think that a serious analysis of that possibility may shed light onto a lot of problems in society.

Mrs. Muddy you keep on keepin' on. You asked how you can forget about yourself, and I think you would be best qualified. As a mother and wife who's dedicated so much, you've demonstrated how one gives so much much without thinking sufficiently of themselves. I imagine the next step is to ask why. If the answers make you happy and others happy, then I imagine you're on the right track.

It is a long debate of philosophy if there is any real altruism.

Would Mother Theresa have dedicated her life to the impoverished if her own faith was not a motivation?
Would Martin Luther King Jr. have given his life had he not thought it worth giving?
Would Jesus have died on the cross if he did not know he would rise again to be seated at the right hand of your Lord?

This is why I question the motivations of those who sacrifice little and gain much. This is why I suggest everyone do the same. If it can be argued that even these great people did things not of pure altruism, then why are the arguments against the most powerful people of this world implausible?

Remember, Martin Luther King Jr. died for a reason. The motivations behind the killing of this man most likely lie with those he spoke against. Just as your Christ Jesus spoke against the money changers in the temple and the abuse of authority, and was consequently killed, Martin Luther King Jr. may have come to the same demise...though during present days, resurrections and the writing of holy literature is not as persuasive. Plus he was black, unlike the blue eyed Jesus that I remember from school.

In regards to the invitation of some black folks into this debate, will there be no response from the others? I am confident they have read this. I know when I talk shit about someone, I don'twant that person around, especially if that person knows better than myself.

Let's all look over our shoulders before we say nigger.

This is still a racist country, it was built on such foundations. Manifest Destiny, the Trail of Tears, Slavery, the KKK, Jim Crow Laws, Cross Burning, Rush Limbaugh, and many people that we know including ourselves. Where did all this hate go that was institutionalized for hundreds of years? Do you think it's even possible that it's gone? I don't think so, as we have so demonstrated in this debate.

How about we ask the black folks when they get in on this? I want to see how you folks feel about that first.

"30 day work week"

Now that’s a long week. I assume you meant a 30 hour work week. But tell me if you were President and lowered the workweek to 30 hours would you insist that companies still pay the employees the same as if they were working a 40 hour week?
If not then I don’t get it because most companies offer benefits as long as you work a 32-hour week. So that would in effect involuntarily cut someone’s pay.
If you would make companies pay the same then what would you say to the many small businesses that you would have driven out of business sending even more people to the unemployment line?
Let me guess. A government program.

BamBOOzLed:

"I am a womanizer, so be wary"

That's ok. Everyone needs a hobby (hehehe). How's it working out for YOU (actually don't answer that question:-D )

"...and don't give Muddy a hard time."

Well, there goes MY hobby:-P

"Life is what's happening to you when your busy making other plans"

Very true indeed! And might I also add that Life (as wonderful of a teacher that it is) never turns out the way we plan. But hopefully we can be smart enough to learn it's lessons fully as it (life) continues on in the only way it can....naturally.

Oh yes, believe me I know! What you say about women and sufferage throughout the centuries (including this one) is unfortunately very true. I don't think anyone on this board would disagree with that. As a matter of fact, it completely breaks my heart when I hear stories of what other women go through in certain parts of the world all in the name of religion, culture or even (sometime especially) superstition.

God knows I love being a woman and I do embrace it as well but to know that there are women just like me out in the world who instead of being able to embrace their womanhood - they have to fear it instead and even become ashamed - it truely IS heartbreaking. The only thing I can do for them is pray.

"You asked how you can forget about yourself..."

Actually, even though that statement I made about myself is true ( to a degree) I was mostly making fun of myself...respectfully, of course :-) To tell you the complete truth this next statement is really how I try my best (even though I do not always succeed) to live my life:

1st: God
2nd: Myself (only because of my personal relationship with him, I need to know what He wants of me first before I can share myself with anyone else.)
3rd: My husband (Ah, my dear sweet Muddy....only because I believe that if you and your spouse do not have it together then the rest of your household will be out of wack)
4th: The children
5th: The church (now, this is one I mess up *constantly*...oooops!)
6th: everything else

Sorry, maybe that was more than what you cared to know but at 2:50 a.m. when I have NO real good reason to be up it's easy to start rambling:-)

BTW: Your comment about Jesus:
"Plus he was black, unlike the blue eye Jesus that I remembered from school."

Did we attend the same school?:-D I mean what IS up with that! Of course He was black...He was a JEW! :-D

read thomas jefferson....actually read him.
he wasnt pro slavery but of course he was a hypocrit as he had slaves himself, nonetheless he saw racism as integral to american system

read 'notes on the state of virginia" more importantly essay entitle manners...

Of course He was black...He was a JEW

?

jews and blacks are not the same...what you meant im sure is that he def wasnt a blonde

Les:

Yes, yes...good point. Jews and blacks are not the same. BUT I did read somewhere a long time ago (don't ask where...I can't remember) that some people believe that the area where Jesus grew up in that his skin was probably closer to that of a black persons and not white ....as some have taught throughout the years. Like I stated last night though ( or shall I say earlier this morning), at 2:50 a.m. I was lucky I still remembered how to type and I had NO idea why I was on here so late.

Les:
I think Bamboozled was trying to say is that to many racists in America you are either White or Black, and if you are 1/2 black, or jewish you are still considered Black by many people. The racist tradition in America is one of seperating "White" from "Colored" and in racist America, Colored means anything different from White Christian. It is different in europe where race has a different and more specific meaning.

here you can listen to one of Dr. Kings most rousing speeches... take the flash animation at face value... some would say the flash was done by "leftists" "Commies" or "peacemongers"
http://www.bushflash.com/mlk.html

cwilli wrote:

"Its all about personal motivation. You cant honestly tell me that if a person is motivated to achieve his/her goals that they could not pull themselves out of poverty. This happens every day. This being that case I honestly believe that someone in poverty must not want out of poverty bad enough."

I used to think of it this way too, so I can absolutely see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, sometimes we have to get a taste of the other side of things before we really understand.

At the risk of blowing my cover:)--I'm a 31 year old white boy, from a white-bread small town, with a hard-earned 4 year degree, who has been part of the workforce(part time and full time) constantly since age 15, and who has been supporting himself 100% since age 18.

One morning in the middle of August last year, I woke up to find out that myself and all 25 of my co-workers were being laid off, so that our company could gain "operational efficiencies" by taking jobs away from well-paid, experienced technicians and giving them to lower-paid project managers and billers in another state.

Instead of whining about it, I motivated myself and determined to use the 2.5 months of employment I had left to find new work, and began my job search before I even went to work that day to be given the news officially.

Over the almost 6 months since that day, I have applied for nearly 40 positions, both in my field and in other fields, both private and public sector, within commuting distance from my home and elsewhere in my state if relocation is offered.

Out of those companies and state agencies, less than half were kind enough to let me know that they had received my resume/application materials. Only two of them were kind enough to let me know that they had considered me fully, but hired another applicant. This Monday, I have my *first* job interview out of the 40 or so positions I have applied for. Most of my co-workers have had a similar experience.

And although it makes every bone in my body ache, we've had to take advantage of some of the services that we all(including me) gripe about paying taxes for.

--Thanks to a somewhat-generous severance plan from my former employer and Unemployment Insurance, we've been able to keep our rent paid and the cupboards almost full--thus far.

--Thanks to Healthy Start/Healthy Families, my newborn daughter is getting the immunizations and infant care she needs, my wife was able to get the post-natal care she needed, and my stepson has health care available should he need it. Had it not been for that program, we would have had to either come up with $800 a month to keep our HMO, or go without.

--Thanks to WIC, we've been able to continue getting our newborn's baby formula that runs $40-$50 a week, as well as some extra groceries to make sure that Mom and the kids are all getting what they need.

Without those three programs, we would have been in deep s--t.

All in all, it's been an inconvenience, with an end in sight. But what has become glaringly obvious to me over the past 3 months is that most of the people who need and use these services have *real* problems; and, contrary to popular belief, they don't generally include laziness or lack of motivation from what I've seen. It occured to me also while seeing all of this firsthand, that if it has been this difficult for *me* who has a BA and a solid 16-year work history to find gainful employment, then how difficult must it be for these people? Can *all* of them possibly be lazy and unmotivated? I don't think so.

The point of this long-winded story is this: Motivation and Determination are essential for any degree of success at all. But they are also a small part of a larger picture. I have all that I do due to very hard work, a supportive family, a good upbringing----and some good fortune as well. What about people who are motivated and determined and hard-working, but perhaps don't have the rest of these things?

So, for those talking about "welfare" reform(and I used to be one of them), it's important to be sure that we've seen both sides of the coin. It's very easy for us to lay the "lazy" blanket over a group of people who are not "us". But the reality of it is somewhat different than our perception. It's definitely been a character-building journey for me.

The truth of the situation is that the programs and services we all pay taxes into and gripe about it provide opportunity and assistance with basic human needs to people who need it. And on the other side of it, I'm proud to pay the taxes that support them.

ANY welfare system in place will be abused by a few. That does not mean the system needs "reformed" or discontinued. It means that more effort needs to be made to identify the abusers and deal with them. If you have a social gathering and a couple of people show up drunk and obnoxious, do you kick eveyone out and turn out the lights?

I've come to realize that without a system that is beneficial to all Humankind,that our current system is an insult and mochs its own existence,for if everyone was treated fairly and equally we would not have the problems we have today.Actually the word system should not even be used for a poor person it only represents oppresion and slavery,the rich and ones in control are the ones who benefit,they advertise,push in our face,and brainwash us into selling out the real us to become something other than what our creator intended.

Mrs. Muddy wrote:

"Yes, yes...good point. Jews and blacks are not the same. BUT I did read somewhere a long time ago (don't ask where...I can't remember) that some people believe that the area where Jesus grew up in that his skin was probably closer to that of a black persons and not white ....as some have taught throughout the years."

Controverial argument here.:)

It's based on the common assumption that "African" equals "Black", which is false. Most of the peoples we regard as being "Black" are found in the parts of Africa south of the Sahara desert. In Northern Africa(Algeria, Libya, Egypt, etc.), people tend to be much lighter-skinned.

This fact is only marginally useful to the debate, however, because Jesus was not African, nor did he ever travel to Africa as far as we know.

Given that he was born and raised a Hebrew in present-day Israel, and given that complexions and features in that portion of the mideast tend to be similar to that of Northern Africa more or less, we can safely assume that Jesus' complexion and features resembled present-day Israelis, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians, etc.

Having said that, many archaeologists and historians who reject the notion of Jesus' divinity and virgin birth have suggested that his birth may have been the result of rape by a Roman soldier(remember that Israel and most all of the mideast and North Africa were occupied by the Roman Empire at this time in history, and that Roman soldiers came both from present-day Italy as well as other European countries). I don't know if I buy all that, but if this is true, it is then easily conceivable that Jesus could have displayed distinctly European traits.

In my opinion though, the whole debate is a bit moot. People waste far too much time arguing(sometimes rabidly)about what color Jesus was, and completely forget about who he was and what he was about.

Lurker:

"Most of the people we regard as being "Black" are found in the parts of Africa south of the Sahara...."

Ah. I see. You make a good point...however, I was just throwing a thought out there. Good catch :-)

"...many archaeologists and historians who reject the notion of Jesus' divinity and virgin birth....."

Actually, I'm starting to wonder if you and I saw the same documentary on the History channel (I believe it was)? Stating that, yes, I have heard these theories too. I personally do not buy it though. As a Christian, I believe that if the Bible says it - then it's true. So obviously, I do believe in the virgin birth. Though I am a history buff myself and so fascinated with these documentarys, I also feel that hisorians WAY over analyse these things. And I'm talking as a person who would someday like to earn a degree in archaeology/anthropology and maybe some other "ologys" (not to mention earning a degree in other *completely* unrelated areas as well.....Oh well, SOOO many interrests... ).

"People waste far too much time arguing (sometimes rabidly) about what color Jesus was, and completely forget about who he was and what he was about."

Excelent point. I agree. The colour of Jesus' skin IS irrelevant. However, like I stated above, I personally just find it fascinating "digging" to the bottom of things. I've been trying to study my own genealogy ( there goes another stinking "ology" again :-P ) and while sometimes hitting one brick wall after another with some of my own family, it sparked my interrest in Jesus' own genealogy - which is multiethnic in it's own right especially on the women's side: Rahab - a Canaanite (and a harlot for that matter) ; Ruth - was from Moab; Mary - Jesus' mother was from Nazareth.

Ok, *maybe* I have too much of a curious mind. Is that a blessing or a curse? :-D

But, your absolutly right, we need to remember who he is and who he was and still is about.

I don't know if anyone is still on this thread, but this gives an idea of the US's historical perspective on racial tolerance.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/WWindianremove.htm

Lurker wrote:

"I used to think of it this way too, so I can absolutely see where you're coming from. Unfortunately, sometimes we have to get a taste of the other side of things before we really understand."

I have not only tasted the other side. I lived there for many years. My mother was a single parent. We lived on the welfare system most of my pre-adult life. HUD payed our rent every month. I know what it feels like to pay for food with food stamps because I have actually done it. I know what it is like to get your school clothes from the salvation army because I have actually done it.

I also seen MANY, MANY people abuse the system.

I have personally vowed to never let my kids taste the same "other side" as you call it. Thats why I say that if you have motivation you can remove yourself from poverty. I dont have a single degree. I have my military experience and OJT and I compete for the same jobs as you. I am far from poverty (thank you, lord) and as long as I can still breath and move my arms and legs, I will never be there again. It does not matter what work I do.

So forgive me if I believe that someone who has enough motivation can remove themselves form poverty if they want.

I am also sorry to hear about your recent unemployment. But let me ask you this. Is it that you cant find a job that fits your degree/personal taste or more that you cant find any work at all? And do you actually consider yourself at poverty level?

Good luck Lurker.

Go networking ... See as many people as you can, friends and stuff... Make sure half of this world knows you're looking for a certain kind of job...

wow great