muddysmind.com

Haha. I just *knew* either you, muddy or cwilli would very soon be posting something about this. Personally, my money was on you or cwilli to take the lead. It was, after all, just a matter of time.

Yep that's basically what the article says.
One bomb did not correctly explode...
But where are the huge stocks, where is the danger ?
That's the same lame discovery as the 30 years old fighters found in the desert.

If anything can be said about Irak at the moment it is that it poses a more serious threat to world security now than it did 1 year and 3 months ago.

Now al quaida can move at will within the country, now civil war seems very close, now oil exports are under attack ...

And US credibility is below the ground with all the stories about abou graib, and let's not forget Guantanamo ...

There are no WMD. This is for sure. in fact this was known before the war started.
There were no links between Saddam with al quaida. But there seem to be now links between alquaida and the sunnite leaders.

Will there be a democracy in Iraq ? This is about the only war aim that once looked like it could be reached.
The question remains open.
But one thing is sure, it is not by lying hiding and frightening that one can build a democracy.

Let's wait and see.
Believe me Bush will remain forever the shame of your "republic".

And if any of you has any very sure information coming from people on the ground about the likeliness of any event ... Please disclose it.
The latest prediction was so inaccurate i believe the best way to be informed is to read stuff posted here and simply suppose just exactly the opposite is going to happen.

Meanwhile stocks are falling. And it's only a beginning. Then will come the time of housing prices.
And then we'll be done with all the advocates of big corporations, banking, free ride with speculation, and everything for the wealthy.
Spend now pay later is about to end. Thank you Lord.

Frankly I can't see how people supporting Linux can stand behind Bush advocate of wars, foreign adventures, unlimited debt, big companies and finance.
AS far as I know of, the only way to fair competition is through anti trust legislation, and pro labor union laws, without those you have private monopolies like microsoft spoiling the consumer and worker everywhere everytime, for the sake of the minority in charge.
Standing behind corporations is standing against democracy (republic if you like)

"But where are the huge stocks, where is the danger ?"

Ok, so if the police find "just a trace" of cocaine on me but NOT a "full supply" then that's nothing? The "trace" of cocaine HAD to come from somewhere where there *is* a bigger supply.

The point is, WHY did they have it in the FIRST place. They weren't supposed to.

The other point is: They had *this* much so where is the rest?

Dude. You have proven MY personal theroy. I believe that we could find a whole freakin' *truck load* of sarin (and whatever else is out there) and people like you would simply say:

"Is that all? That's not much of a threat."

You've proven my theory. If you find a lone bomb not working you say that it's proof that there were jus before the war weapons of mass destruction ...
If you read the article you posted you can see that this kind of bomb was known to have existed in the 90's and supposed to have been destroyed since, though some of it might have remained. So what was found is the traces of what remains after a massive disarvement has been enforced ...
If you find traces of cocaine in a place where lots where supposed to be after the police has passed you can conclude logically : that there are no longer huge stocks, because the police has destroyed them, though it has left some traces...

Now you'll have to tell me why this lone bomb is big news, when it appears Rumsfeld approved himself the procedures who led to torture on the iraki people in abou graib... He agreed with the methods and then pretended to be shocked by them, just like he lied on the iraki nuclear program using fakes and then was supposedly suprised by founding nothing.
READ NEWSWEEK and cry over your so called "freedom" and how Bush rumsfeld and co laugh about it and destroy it at will.
May be they'll even stop the election ...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/17/iraq.abuse.main/

And believe the denial if you want to ...

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/
And there you get the original story.
But Hi ho ... Let's not believe it ...

There are wmd in Iraq, read the news today.

As for that last link, I enjoy fiction as must as next guy but not in my news. :-(

Hey DF, the 30 year old fighters was their current fleet. Heck! The birds my unit uses are 50 years old! Not only that, but our Marines and soldiers actually assaulted an airbase while they were in the middle of burying their jets!

DF, your argument is basically, okay so we found some, but they must have been the only ones. Come on, I've said for quite sometime they were most likely moved elsewhere, and this circumstantially lends credence to that.

The abuse of Iraqi prisoner's was indeed abuse and agains tthe Geneva convention. Okay so we're prosecuting hte people who did it. How about getting upset about terrorists cutting off a man's head and TV networks showing it!

I've generally given you respect DF, but this just shows you're a blithering idiot. You want to talk about denial?! You don't even understand how our government works yet you comment on it.

DF:

So, I've "proven" your theory, did I? Well, I guess that's all in the way you look at it. Allow me to be *more* specific in clarifying the way *I* look at it.

Yes, they found *traces* of it true. BUT look who we're dealing with - referring to and talking about. SADDAM HUSSEIN!!! Based on his track record, there's no way I believe that *that* trace of sarin is just "all" that was left from 'days of old'.

"So what was found is the traces of what remains after a massive disarvement (disarmament?) has been enforced ... "

Yeah...and I'm supposed to believe that *Saddam Hussein* - a very defiant creature - actually chose *that* specific moment in time to honestly do what he was told to do the way he was told to do it. If you believe *that* then *I've* got one million dollars I'd like to deposit into you're bank account. All I need is you're account number and you'll be set....just e-mail me the information I need, and you'll be a very rich man, k?

1 Irak was a small country with a small army.
Most of it was crashed in Gulf war 1
Then came inspections and they destroyed in turn more weapons than did the war itself
then came 10 years of embargo on almost everything

And you wanted anyone to believe that this country had terrifying weapons ?

Come on.

We'll see what the recent discovery leads too. But so far after one year in the country the amount of discovery is close to Nil zero, nada ... nothing. Better phrased most of the accusations (smal combat planes, chemical trucks) were proven FALSE.

The UN guy in charge of inspections before, blix said there would be nothing to find, the US guy in charge of inspections after said he found nothing worth it.
It would be a BIG surprise if anything big would come out ...

2
The bush administration has a very bad track record on human rights. Dating back to guantanamo.
May you remember hundreds of prisonner are being held there, for more than 2 years ... Many have been proven innocent, relaxed, but with no forme of compensation what so ever ...
Conditions of imprisonment do not respect any form of legal order...
What you read is not fiction. It is the simple truth of the ugly dictator taking power in your country under your very blind eyes. (unless it is all Rumsfeld fault of course... )

Whatever, DF....Whatever.

They found that one shell with Sarin gas in it?

Well, I guess it's all been worth it then. Glad this all got sorted out finally.

Except waitaminute....how many hundred tons of that stuff was Saddam suppposed to have aimed at the U.S. with those ICBM's he was on the brink of developing in those two big semi trailers?

One shell is all? And an ancient one even?

Come on guys. Think straight and get serious. Even Fox News changed their headline from "WMD Found in Iraq" to "Chemical Agent Found in Iraq".

It's just as likely(and probably more so) to have come from Al-Qaeda(they weren't in Iraq before the war, but they sure as hell ARE there now, ask Nick Berg).

Don't get me wrong guys, seriously. I would LOVE for the U.S. military to find gargantuan stockpiles of stuff like this stamped with Saddam's name and phone number so that I can feel better about the whole thing. But it hasn't happened, and it is not going to happen.

Okay, so what you're saying is that a) only new weapons count (nevermind that most of what he had was old) b) this muuuuust have been the ONLY one c) al quaeda just got there (not true, but i have a much better source than you) d) al quaeda couldn't have gotten a WMD from Saddam e) that this couldn't have been done by some people fromt he republican guard (which disappeared at the beginning of the war) who happen to know where all the weapons went, and f) that even if this weapon came from saddam's stuff, that these two with sarin (and the one with mustard gas LAST week) were the only ones they got.

Sure, makes perfect sense to me.

I don't think they'll find them either, i think Saddam gave them away since we gave hima ll the time int he world to do so.

All you have to ask yourself is one question.
Which is more likely?
One left over shell that someone forgot. Or ...
Many shells that are buried and their beginning to use them?

If you think it's one shell and that's it, then your nuts.

"If you think it's one shell and that's it, then your nuts."

Well...."nuts" isn't the word *I* would use but I guess it *is* more tactful and polite.

It amazes me how some people can come up with the most elaborate conspiracy theories on EVRYTHIING but fail to connect the dots on simple things.

Is it totally impossible to believe that Saddam shipped his WMD off to another country before we got there? He did the same thing with his entire Air Force in Gulf War 1. It worked for him then, why is it so hard to believe he would do it with his WMD?

Why is that so hard to believe? They found enough WMD to kill 80,000 people in Jordan a few months ago. The exact stuff that Saddam was known to be producing. Why is it not possible this came from his indirectly through Syria?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36463

Tell me why this is not possible.

COME ON ...
Please comment on this link
http://www.ceip.org/files/pdf/IraqWMDpdf.pdf

then ...
I don't know. How can you pretend to see the conspiracy theories of the others and not those of your leaders...

your government LIED and not about a blow job, about stuff that helped decide a war. these lies are PROVEN, because they used PROVEN fake documents and because many allegations (the chemical trucks, drones) were PROVEN false.

if you want to move to the next lie, start by aknowledging the first ones. It will make you look more credible.

"How can you pretend to see the conspiracy theories of the others and not those of your leaders..."

We never claimed our leaders are perfect but it's all about the pattern someone displays. Saddam is notorious for being evil, sneaky AND yes, a lier. That's his *pattern*

"your government LIED and not about a blow job,"

Our *government* didn't lie about a blow job....our former *president* ( the clown that he was)did.

"It will make you look more credible."

As compared to YOU?

You know what, DF....Just go ahead and believe what you want to (not like ANYTHING *we* could say would change your closed mind anyway). You just better hope that whatever other chemical weapons *are* out there that is doesn't find a way into YOUR country by the way of some terrorist. BUT, hey, if it does....don't worry, the United States will always be there to help save your asses... yet AGAIN.

Hey, First off the conspiracy theories we're talking about are ones you just espoused. And hey, talk about the pot calling the kettle black! Let's talk about your country's lies. The phrase "War for oil" ring a bell? How much oil have we stolen from Iraq? Since your country said that's why we went in there. Nevermind the massive oil interest France and Germany. Or Russia's loans that would never get repaid either war? How about Saddam's pay offs to Russia, France, Germany and UN officials for looking the other way when he took money instead of food for oil?

Proven stolen documents? Proven lies? I've heard no such proof, only theories. However, the commission commissioned by Kofi Annan is saying that he was taking payoffs from Saddam, along with your leaders and Germany's and Russia's.

You arguing with a Frenchman. This guy lives in the toilet bowl of the world and he is saying our country stinks?

DF, I have said it before and I will say it again. Nobody cares about the opinions of a Frenchmen. Not even the French.

Truth hurts. But you must face it.
Go ahead, comment the link posted.
Illusion leads to delusion.

I don't care about my countries links to iraq. This is not the point here.
The point here is the war was supposed to be very necessary, because of WMD's, very urgent. And the USA spit at the face of the rest of the world saying, we'll protect our citizens the way we want to by invading all countries which we believe pose a threat to us...
So you came there. And there were no WMD's...

And then there is the democracy goal. (suddenly discovered when the WMD's goal really started to look weak). ANd achieving that one seems a tough job... For which the coalition has been proved to be rather unprepared. But that had been foretold too.

So the basic official lines of the USA were wrong, and the basic official lines of the rest of the world was right.

The USA may have side interests, and the french, may also... They are not in question here. Let's not care about if Bush had friends in alliburton, or the french received money from saddam...
It does not change the official line, the one at stake, the one the facts can prove right or wrong.

How can you prefer one president lyoing in order to launch a war to a president lying about a blow job ?
Who ought to be inpeached ?

Oh, so your country's links have no bearing since hey they don't exactly help your world view do they? Cut the crap.

Hey DF, Clinton lied about more than that, and he did it under oath in a court room, not to mention that there is great evidence that he committed rape, which is an accusation he's refused to answer, much less deny.

Lying in front of a television camera is one thing, every president does it and sometimes they have to do it. But Clinton lied under oath, in a court of law over a a lawsuit made possible by a law he signed (and touted as a great political victory.) That's a felony, it is called perjury. He was actually disbarred over it too! He lied to deny a woman her day in court, and that is dispicable and he not only should have been impeached, but he should have been convicted instead of aquitted in that sham of a senate trial. That probably would have meant Al Gore would be president now (God help us all...) but I'd rather see Al Gore president than see such a disgrace in our oval office.

Next time you want to comment about our government, try understanding how it works.

Nobody cared outside US about clinton's wrongdoings because they were inner affairs. No harm done to other countries, nor to the USA ... If the accusations are true, he is a rapist and a crook.
Not a threat to world security.

I'm not discarding my countries supposed links to help my world view.
I'm trying to stick with the fact.
The USA government said sth. It turned out false.
The french government said sth else. It turned out true.

The USA government might have had motives to say such things, and the french motives to say others... This can remain only speculation. Because motives are out of reach. We'll never know.

What remain are the fact. Who said what. True or not.

This is the way to get to simple and easily acceptable truth (for normal people).
If you start looking for motives ... This will turn to fighting and no progress will be made.
facts are simple.
US gvt said : there is a nuclear program
Fact : none
US gvt said : there are huge loads of chemical weapons ready for use
Fact none
US gvt said : there are drones and mobile missile lauching system and mobile chemical weapons laboraties
Fact none.

US said :
War necessary out of security concern, link with 9/11
Fact : no link

The US might have had good reason to lie, and France wrong reasons to say the truth, USA might have lied while not meaning it , and france said the truth without knowing it... This is not my point.
Just start all by reckoning the US gvt made a big mistake. Then when that is done you can move into a less agressive state and wonder why and how it happened.

as we all now know, there no WMD in irak

Just Like there are no Frenchmen in France. ;-)

df: every thing you said didn't exist has been proven to exist. Hey, DF get a new record, that one is broken.

DF:
Can you prove *you* exist?

who am I?

There are no WMD in irak. There are no WMD in irak. There are no WMD in irak. There are no WMD in irak. There are no WMD in irak. There are no WMD in irak. There are no WMD in irak. There are no WMD in irak. There are no WMD in irak. There are no WMD in irak.

I like snails.

LMAO!

"who am I?"

wait, wait, don't tell me...I can do this! Uhhhhhhhhhh...give me a little more of a hint.

They say repetition is the base of teaching.
I figure if you are not sensible to reason, may be repetition can do the trick

"They say repetition is the base of teaching. I figure if you are not sensible to reason, may be repetition can do the trick"

OH! I get it now! You're trying to *teach* us, eh? To be more like you? How sweet of you to care........should I be flattered?

df: We have sense to reason. I have more than you. Do you have a college degree df? What you'res in? What quality of school did you attend? I'm 2 years from mine. In computer engineering and a minor in history from the Georgia Institute of Technology. Ever heard of it? It's held in pretty high esteem in engineering circles, very difficult to get into. Point is, I've spent 3 years proving I can reason, but you show s that the only reasoning you can do is that which falls into line with your government's activities. Anyone else's ideas are wrong and you can't even see how they are possible. Get over it and starting thinking "Hey, let me explore the possibilities. Let me look at it from a diffierent point of view." But you only get your information from people who agree with YOU so how are you going to do that?

In order to be taught you have to be willing to learn. Your broken record is getting annoying.

"Do you have a college degree df? What you'res in? What quality of school did you attend?"

Sweetie, I understand what you're saying. However, it's kind of irrelevant...well, to a degree (no pun intended). An education from college *does* give you a chance to study the facts in order for you to be better taught so that one can sometimes *be* in a better position *to* reason more sensibly. However, I doubt the education that college offers has really *anything* to do with "reasoning" itself. The best "education" for reason is an open mind from the experience you gain in UOL - or as *I* call it...University of Life.:-)

The ability to reason is simply the ability to think through problems. The better you are abile to work through problems, the better reasoning you have. If he lacks the ability enought o reason his way throughc ollege, then he has no business telling me I can't reason.

Isnt insanity defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?

Skywalker:

With all that money spent on your education, you'd think you'd be able to spell better. hehehe. Ok, ok...maybe you're just typing to fast? :-P

Cwilli:

"Isnt insanity defined as doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result?"

It could very well be a *symptom*.:-) Oh, damn! In that case....I should probably be put away myself! haha:-)

mrs muddy: typing errors are not spelling errors. And my school isn't expensive at all.

"typing errors are not spelling errors."

It is when you put the letters in the wrong order.;-P Sorry, I just had to poke fun if for *just* a moment. I poked fun at muddy's misuse of a conjunction just the other day. However, I shall try to be "good" and keep it to myself next time.

I hold 2 masters in politics and economy, currently in a PhD in economics and industrial relations ...
You skywalker do not seem to look beyond what's on foxnews and your friends in Iraq tell you... You can't even make it to what David Kay has to say. And he was leader of the american task force (1000 guyes), appointed by the US goverment in charge of finding the WMD's in Irak.
You're dead blind.
ANd you dare tell me that I... Who has been confronted to more neo con crap than any other french man or liberal on earth ... (at least I'm in the 10% of people who know that people as narrowminded as you exist).... That I ... was I saying.. I'm the one unable to confront my ideas to other's opinion ?
Open your eyes sky ...
Your government lied, everybody knows it now. I know it must be hard to lose faith in people you have trusted ... But that's it. They lied to you ... There are posts on this very web site about the nuclear program, the chemical mobile program, the drones ... And nothing has been found.

There are also posts about how iraki people will love the american army and welcome them...
all this from you guys.

And there are also posts about the hell in creation, the fights between chiites and sunnites, and no WMD from me.

So it's not a matter of whose side your government and mine are ... It's just a matter of fact.
You were wrong. I was right. And you can't admit it because your dawn to proud and or stupid. ANd I won't make it easy for you.

And cwilli. It's not insanity. If you hit people with ideas strong enough. At one point they give up fighting. ANd lie on the ground.

You can't imagine how happy I am when I see you do not dare follow the link I post, and all you have left is insults that reveal just how point less you are. (you have no point to make, you look around and there is not one thing you can rely upon to hold on your beliefs)
Get real.

Two problems with everything you just said DF. All of your evidence comes from people who weren't even there and there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Oh BTW, I'm *not* a conservative.

I don't follow the links you post because I have followed enough of them to know that they all say the same thing. I'm hardly stupid or scared or proud. You say we have nothing to resort to but insult? You've been insulting us since day one! So cut the crap. You're a pot calling a kettle black and *you* are to blind to see that.

Forgive me, DF and cwilli for butting in because I know cwilli - you can speak for yourself, but...

DF: "If you hit people with ideas strong enough. At one point they give up fighting. ANd lie on the ground."

Well, 1st of all, it sounds like you believe in forcing your "ideas" because you're not willing to hear and listen to anyone but yourself.

2ndly: Yes, you *can* "hit" people with *ideas*. It doesn't mean those *ideas* are facts.

3rdly: Yes, sometimes they do end up giving up their fight. However, that could mean one of 3 things. A) That you truely *have* convienced them you're right (which btw is *not* the case here). B) They're just too tierd to give a crap anymore and just end up agreeing with you (even though, they truely *don't* - or as I stated above, forcing your "ideas* on them.) just to shut you up. OR C) They give up their fight simply because they understand that the other party is too stupid to listen and they realize that intelligable conversation lies else where. It's in the case of point "C" that the person does not just "lie on the ground" but just end up taking their intelligence and walking away.

"You can't imagine how happy I am when I see you do not dare follow the link I post, and all you have left is insults that reveal just how point less you are. (you have no point to make, you look around and there is not one thing you can rely upon to hold on your beliefs)
Get real. "

I am real DF. You are the one in dream land. Besides I do not follow your links because, as I have told you many times, I do not care about the opionions of a frenchmen in regards to MY country. You should spend more time on your OWN country. I know its a toilet but its YOUR toilet. So on occassion do us all a favor and clean the pot.

"And cwilli. It's not insanity. If you hit people with ideas strong enough. At one point they give up fighting. ANd lie on the ground."

Is that a quote from Saddam?

"So on occassion do us all a favor and clean the pot."

LMAO!!!