July 29, 2004

Americans' incomes fell for two years

The IRS reported that America's Income fell two years in a row, the first ever consecutive drop since WWII.

Now the Mrs. and I knew this after my layoff last year and the fact I had to take a job making much less than I was. Times are hard, very hard.

Several factors in my opinion have brought us here.
  • Shipping a thousands of our jobs overseas so Worthless Scum CEO's can profit from cheaper taxes overseas and much, much, much cheaper labor.
  • Having the flood gates open on Immigration
  • Worthless Scum CEO's raping companies getting 20million bonuses while laying off 6,000 workers they badly need
  • Greed
  • Story @ CNNMoney

    Posted by Muddy at July 29, 2004 03:16 PM | TrackBack



    Comments

    so, that means you must have liked john edwards "two americas" speech. LOL

    Posted by: mooseboy84 at July 29, 2004 06:11 PM

    No sir, I did not watch that trite.

    Posted by: muddy at July 29, 2004 09:33 PM

    I didn't watch it, but i loved how he talked about positive campaigning and in the next sentence started being negative.

    There is always going to be different classes. Even in countries that are vastly socialist or communist there is an upper class. He's just playing hte classwarfare card.

    As far astheincome thing goes though, muddy is right. Unethical CEOs, are a huge problem. Problem is that it is their right to do with their business as they please. When the government starts interfering and telling business how to spend their money then what you have is fascism.

    Another problem: the dumbing down of America. Due to our hideous education system (which throwing money at, does NOT fix) American's just don't havethe job skills they used to have.

    Another problem: Bush's moronic pandering to the hispanic vote with his little illegal alien amnesty. Oh, democrats aren't exactly innocent on that end either. Look at California where they are trying to make it possible for illegal aliens to vote! When I left that hideous state, they were about to give them driver's licenses! And that was their democrat dominated legislature that wanted to do that.

    The biggest issue though? The government's interference with our daily lives and business. Government is overregulating everything. Why do you think healthcare costs so God awful much (BTW, who are these people working for that they can't get insurance? Fast food places offer fulltime employees insurance benefits!) It's because a) government regulation requires they cover you for things that you may not want coverage for, therefore increasing you as a risk and potential costs for the insurance company. b) government regulation of doctors c) people like John Edwards suing doctor's for things like them thinking that c-sections may lower the risk of cerebral palsy! (Turns out it doesn't but John Edwards didn't know that or care.)

    My mother is a nurse and they have to dedicate staff to the menial task of filling out monthly reports on their patients (nursing home.) why? Government regulation. The government is regulating the country to death.

    Is some needed? WITHOUT A DOUBT! There are some areas the government should regulate. Commerce is a prime example. The SEC is an example. The FCC is an example, but it too is an exmaple of government run amok. Sorry, why can't you say whatever you want on TV? People can vote with their radio dial or tv remote. And I don't want to hear that lame excuse about protecting children, maybe parents should parent and watch what their children are doing. the FCC being put to good use would be it simply regulating the use of frequencies.

    Okay, end of rant.

    Posted by: skywalker at July 29, 2004 09:58 PM


    "Okay, end of rant."

    ...and a *good* rant it was! Feel better?:-)

    "(BTW, who are these people working for that they can't get insurance?"

    Well, I don't know how things are NOW but I do know that 10 yrs. ago (Good God!...has it been that long, muddy?) when I was working in "retail", I told my employers that I needed fulltime work with benefits. They told me that they couldn't hire me on fulltime status because they couldn't afford to offer me benefits yet (it was something that few people had there anyway and it was something you'd have to wait for). They told me they would have to put me on "part time status" but that they would be more than happy to give me full time hours (which they did...I got 40 hrs. a week - every week PLUS overtime pretty much when I wanted). well, at the time, I needed work and wasn't in the position to be picky so I took it. I worked there for the next 3 1/2 yrs. They always promised to put me on "full time status" but they never seemed to be able to live up to that goal. I never blamed my bosses I worked with (they were good men - for the most part - and would have laid the moon and stars and my feet if they could) because, I knew *they* were too buisy fighting with corporate office to get things changed....they never did but that's another story.

    In all honesty...I never had insurance on my own in my whole life until I married muddy. Come to think of it....you know, some people marry to get that green card...*I* married for the health benefits so I guess it's pretty much the same "scam" but with a different incentive. haha.:-D ***mrs. muddy winks at muddy***

    "My mother is a nurse and they have to dedicate staff to the menial task of filling out monthly reports on their patients"

    I guess it would depend on what they haveto put in those reports. Of course, every place (doctors office, hospital, ect....) has their own paper work they have to take care of ( my mother works in a hospital with "In patient-out patient care" among other tasks she does) some of it is neccesary but some is indeed (at least the way my mother talks at times) a waist of time.

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at July 30, 2004 01:13 PM

    Okay, under US for many years, if they give you 36 hours or more, you are a full-time employee and entitled to all the benefits of the other full-time employees. So saying well you get full time hours but are a part -time employee is...crap. It's a way for unethical people to scam out of providing more benefits than they would like to give.

    If you can't get insurance because you can't find a full-time job, I pity you because like i said, fast food places give insurance to full-time employees (some do for part-timers!) so there jsut isn't an excuse. Now if you work for a company that just doesn't offer benefits. Well, you have three choices, find a place that does, deal with it, or convince them to offer benefits.

    My mom hs to write a report on everything. Mind you, their medical file will state all of this stuff...but a medical file is not int he correct government format. What doe sthe govt dow ith this stuff? Nothing, it's just to "hold them accountable." Accountable for what? You name it, how often the doctors makes rounds (thrice a day), how often the nurses smile at them and how often they blink their eyes (not really but you get the picture.)

    Posted by: skywalker at July 30, 2004 03:08 PM

    The only reason I even brought up the "full time hours under part time status" crap was just to simply give a reason why some people *may* not have benefits. Obviously, it doesn't happen in every circumstance but it is what happened to me so very long ago. Unfortunately, back then, I really didn't question things like that. I just accepted those situations as they were because I just thought it was supposed to be that way - kind of like "paying your dues" so to speak. Of course, that thinking was completely stupid not to mention irresponsible on *my* part (because I didn't pursue nor did I look into what my rights were at the time). Not to mention the fact that it was greedy and unethical on the part of the corporation.

    "If you can't get insurance because you can't find a full-time job, I pity you because like i said, fast food places give insurance to full-time employees (some do for part-timers!) so there jsut isn't an excuse."

    Well, that is very true....however, it's like you said earlier:

    "Why do you think healthcare costs so God awful much... government regulation requires they cover you for things that you may not want coverage for..."

    ...and when that makes its way into the package deal of a corporation, it can sometimes make that package so outrageously priced to the point where some just can't afford the cost of it without comprimising their everyday needs of the cost of living therefore, forcing you into a decision to go without. So, yes, you're right. You either deal with it, find another place of employment (which can take a long time depending on if you can find a job or not that will be willing to pay you what you need to support yourself as well as other dependants - if it applies.). Basically, my point is that things aren't always black and white nor are some situations easy to fix or change - not saying they're *impossible* just a huge challenge....but, of course, I'm sure you know this.

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at July 30, 2004 10:00 PM

    Bush sent those jobs away my friend, to make the rich richer.

    Independantly employed people deserve health care too you know. (you can keep the lame burger job)
    Bushs biggest campaign contributor in 2000 was Kenneth Lay, CEO of Enron, the biggest corporate slimeball in history. (who is still free now looong after Martha Stewarts trial has ended)

    Bush uses stupid little side issues like gay marriage to distract us from important things like the horror of Abu Ghraib.

    George W Bush is a huge liar and a devious underhanded little weasel. The wanna-be "fair, balanced" right-wing nutjobs at Fox news would have you believe he is the second coming of Jesus instead of the anti-christ he acts like. No President has scared me more by having power in my entire life.

    You think George didn't know about Abu Ghraib? Think again. The head guy in Iraq Gen. Ricardo Sanchez had several meetings with Col. Thomas Pappas who was the Military Intelligence guy in charge at Abu Ghraib. He was appointed this position by Sanchez himself. These meetings were to pressure Pappas into obtaining information at a greater rate from the prisoners.(as in torturing them) Sanchez and Rumsfeld had regular meetings, so Rumsfeld knew about it and Bush knew it too. George Bush to this date STILL will not say "torture is wrong" no matter how hard he is pressed by any reporter. It's all part of his strange "it's not a lie if I don't admit it" 3-year old mentality. It reminds me of those ridiculous TV evangelists claiming Gods righteousness and begging for money while simultaneously being greedy and wicked.

    Listing one thing this man has lied about is like pointing out a grain of sand at the beach...

    Read about it here:

    http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at July 31, 2004 10:10 PM

    *giggle*

    Sorry, your ignorance and misinformation astounds me.

    Bush can't send jobs away sir, lack of profits can.

    What you don't seem to understand is that ocrporations have resposibilities to share holders to maximize profits in order to pay dividends. Now before you say well, see the rich getting richer, you should know that most stock holders are not rich, they are middle and even lower class people. My parents who make 35-45k a year each are stock holders. Not directly but through mutual funds et cetera. So let's see...corporation not making profits unless we fire people and I take a pay cut and stock holders subsequently selling our stock like there is no tomorrow, or I take a pay cut, fire people and make a profit and pay shareholders.

    I bet you hae a 401k or an IRA for your retirement which invests in stocks in some way shape or form. Well, if those jobs had not gone away you'd now be crying about the stock market crash "Bush caused" and your retirement fund going away. Instead the economy is growing at an enormous rate, we have a net gain in jobs, the only downside is that wages are dropping. Sorry, I'll take a job with lower wages over no job anyday of the week and twice on sunday.

    As for abu Ghaib... I'm sorry but that was NOT torture. IF you thinkt hat is torture then you are an IDIOT. Bush hasn't said torture' wrong out of his own mouth, but his administrationhas released memo's and meeting minutes from people like rumsfield where they discussed the limits of interrogation techniques and the approved techniques were so mild, I don't see how they get anything out of those prisoners.

    We know Bush knew about Abu Ghraib, Heck, I heard it ont he "Evil" fox news! It was being investigated. So, they should come out and tell us about the embarrassing news items instead of keeping is quiet until the ivestigation is complete. As something of an expert on military affairs, I can only tell you that publicity will screw a military investigation all to hell.

    BTW, Fox News has said some pretty harsh things about Bush...and Kerry. The other networks rarely if ever say something bad about Kerry. The problem is that Fox News is fair and balanced and the others are so far to the lef tthat it is insane.

    Independently emplyoed people can get health care. I once had to independently purchase healthcare through and HMO. Amazingly I still use the same family doctor that I used when I had an HMO. The costs? Insane, but that's but Bush's fault. If it is anyone in the Presidential campaign's fault it is John Edwards, the trial lawyer. Everyone deserves healthcare, but no one has a "right" to it. If you want it, go get it yourself, or find an employer who offers it,t hat was my point. Once upon a time in this country you could go get health insurance where the insurance company would pay medical bills up to $x a year for a set premium per month. This went away due to government regulations. Then insurances and medical costs grew sky high due to juries awarding huge awards for medical malpractice cases where the case was frivolous. These days doctors have un-Godly medical malpractice premiumss because it is usually cheaper to settle a malpractice suit than to fight it. There are actually doctors who are abandoning their practices due to the malpractice premiums. Why? Trial lawyers suing for things like a minor now disproven theory that natural child birht increases the chance of cerebral palsy. Or a person getting permanent pain in their back as a consequence of an operation (even though they signed a release saying that they udnerstood that as a risk. Hey, when I had my wisdom teeth removed I had to sign a release saying I understood the potential for a page long list of risks. If one of those had occurred, I probably could have sued for malpractice and won! (I wouldn't have because I have common sense and I don't know any abulance chasers to try and convince me to do it anyways. ) IF you want to bitch about healthcare, Bush is the wrong guy to blame, you can blame the whole government for over regulating and for not enacting tort reform (loser pays sounds really nice to me!) The other guy to blame is John Edwards and his ambulance chaser hordes. He is part of the problem, not the solution.

    Gay Marriage, I hate to tell you, democrats brought that one up. Enron? Oh my God. First off, they were big contributors...along with a billion other people, so what, the guy is being indicted. MArtha Stewart was the result of an SEC investigation and was a much simpler case. Most of everyone involved with Enron has been indicted, some had plead out already. Due to the lovely lawyers we have in this country (John Edwards) it is incredibly difficult to pin things on CEOs when it comes to accounting fraud.

    Hey, you want to talk about lies, let's talk about John Kerry's lies. How about his wounds that his crew says were self-inflicted. How about hte purple heart he received when his crew said they enver even made contact with the enemy. How about his "I voted for the 87 billion before I voted against it" crap. How about his statedment at the DNC that soldiers should not need charity for body armor, when he voted against allocating the funds for it. How about him saying how he's against the PATRIOT Act when he helped write it!

    Did Bush lie, I'm sure he has about something. Has John Kerry lied? About a lot! Is Bush a great president? Not a chance in hell, government has grown at its fastest rate in history under him. He's lobbied for amnesty for illegal aliens and he's trying to armchair general an army of occupation like a jackass. But if I hae to choose between him and Kerry, I'll take Bush any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    Me, I'm probably voting for Michael Badnarik. I was going to vote for Bush, but he's pretty safe in my state.

    Posted by: skywalker at July 31, 2004 11:20 PM

    Why not vote for Nader then? Since the republicans gave him 43,000 signatures to get on the ballot in Michigan, and you seem pretty pro republican. After all a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush.

    Why personally attack me for having a point of view? Why call me an idiot? Is your position so weak that it cannot stand a little argument? We closed down Saddams torture chamber so we could open it back up to torture people and Bush knew it, and you're OK with that?

    You sir are another "we are right, no matter what" right-wing zealot who cannot see that Bush is Evil personified. You would have us all follow like Lemmings as Bush leads us into oblivion. Your inability to admit when your party is wrong is one of the things tearing this country apart. Just like a parent who can't see when thier child has done wrong. What Bush has done will negatively affect the republican partys reputation for YEARS to come. Perhaps the republicans should wise up and start trying to distance themselves from Bush now, it MIGHT help a little in years to come.

    At this point I would vote for Jim Carey to unseat Bush Jr. We just so happen to be lucky enough to get to vote for a real war hero named John Kerry instead of a deserter like Bush.

    See Fahrenheit 9/11 and sing your praises. See Outfoxed and tell me more about "fair and balanced". Your problem come November is going to be that there are more informed people voting than ever before, and they certainly aren't voting for Bush. People don't rush out to register because they are happy with the incumbant.

    Mark my words. John Kerry will be the next President of the United States of America. All the negative spin and lies won't save them. Get used to the idea now and perhaps it won't hurt your narrow mind so much come November 2nd.

    The only thing I'm "crying" about is the deplorable state that President Bush has let my beloved country come to.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 1, 2004 12:20 AM

    Anyone who votes "Anyone but Bush" is an absolute and total moron. I'm not voting bush and not voting Kerry. I'm voting for the person I think will do the best job, as EVERYONE should. You obviously don't like Kerry for who he is, he's NOT Bush so your going to waste a vote for him. That is asinine.
    I have NO respect or tolerance for ignorance like that.
    What's just as sad as that is your comment "The only thing I'm "crying" about is the deplorable state that President Bush has let my beloved country come to." I supposed Bush is the ONLY person in Washington huh? Get your head out of your butt man, Congress and the Senate Make Laws, the Courts enforce them. The Executive Branch DOES NOT MAKE LAWS, they can encourage and/or suggest some, but Congress and the Senate have to Pass them. If you don't like the laws being past then vote for someone from the people's working party, seems like a nice group of socialists right up your ally.

    "Bush sent those jobs away my friend, to make the rich richer." That's about as wrong as you can be, look up the facts dude. The size of our population that can work grew faster than the amount of jobs created grew, that is your 2 million jobs lost, Bush did not send anything anywhere. Before you say it I'm not defending him, I'm pointing out your ignorance, your anger and your blind rage.
    Calm down, look up cold hard facts and vote with your head not your emotions.

    Posted by: muddy at August 1, 2004 01:17 AM

    COLD HARD FACTS.

    Reasons Bush must go:

    He didn't win the election in the first place. Bushs cousin called Fox news at 2AM and told them Bush had won. The other networks jumped on the bandwagon and said the same in an attempt to not be last, even though it was too close to call. Bush only won his brothers State of Florida by some 500 votes after 10,000 or so black voters were not counted for being incorrectly listed as felons.

    August 6th. Bush gets a Presidents Daily Brief entitled "Bin Laden determined to attack inside the U.S." Then goes fishing.

    September 12th Bush was already planning to attack Iraq. He just had to convince us. So he lied to us all about Weapons of Mass Destruction and ties between Al Queda and Iraq.

    September 13th Bush allowed 24 members of Osama Bin Ladens family to leave the country along with 118 other Saudis via airplane when no one else was allowed to fly, in an attempt to hide his close financial ties with the Saudi Royal Family. It was even on Larry King Live.

    Bush opposed the creation of any investigation into the 9/11 attacks in an attempt to hide his close financial ties with the Saudi Royal Family.

    Bush even had Ambassadors from the Taliban come out to Texas back when he was Governor. Look it up.

    Guantanemo Bay. People are taken there indefinately because King George doesn't believe in the Geneva Convention. We have even started "outsourcing" torturer jobs.

    Abu Ghraib will be the shame of the American people for decades to come, and Rumsfeld is still working.

    North Korea.We are upset about North Koreas Nuclear program and Rumsfeld was in charge of a company that sold them Nuclear Reactors to begin with.

    Afghanistan isn't stable. We have no idea how many people are being indefinately held there, and elsewhere for that matter. Apparently the ex Unocal employees that Bush left in charge might have money on their mind too.

    Then there is Halliburton. No-bid contracts are the way to really take care of old friends, eh? Just write em a blank check and send them on their way.

    These are just a few of the FACTS we know about. Imagine what else we don't! I tell you "Results Matter" all right. Look at us now. Have you no shame?

    The only thing it takes for evil to win is for good men to do nothing.

    I call upon all people of consience to get out and register to vote. We must stop this man. We WILL stop this man. The very future of our country depends on it.

    I am quite happy to cast my vote for John Kerry. As I said, we are fortunate a REAL warrior has come forward to take the place of our current chicken hawk. The FACTS speak for themselves.

    Fahrenheit 9/11 is one of the most factually researched documentarys in our history. This, combined with the fact that the Republican party tried to suppress the movie, have helped it become the first docmentary in history to make more than 100 million dollars.


    I like the guy, and I can't wait to
    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 1, 2004 02:36 AM

    Sir, I can personally attack you because I think you're an idiot.

    Sir, putting panties ona man's head and having dog's bark at them is not torture. Only someone who is an idiot would think it is torture!

    Sir, I'm not a right-winger. I've got ideas of what freedom are that would make your liberal butt cringe! You're the one who calls themself an independent voter but seems to love everything liberals do. One of the few things Bush has done that I have come out in support of is the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes, what a right-winger that I am.

    I've seen Fahrenheit 9/11 and was appalled by the lies adn distortions. Outfoxed I've never heard of, but I have seen enough of CNN and Fox News and NBC News and ABC and CBS and CNBC etc. to know that Fox News is the least slanted of any of them.

    Bush is not a deserter. He was a pilot. It is VERY VERY common for reservist pilots to not come to drill weekends and make up there time elsewhere and I can assure you that if he had deserted, the command he deserted would still to this day have a charge sheet written up on him as they have no mercy for AWOL and desertion.

    Sir, Bush can't make laws. Talk to congress about that.

    On your "facts:"

    1: Not true. Reporters went down their from newspapers like the NY Times and Boston Globe and hand counted every single vote using every possible standard and Bush still won. Get over it.

    2: I get briefs all the time about terrorist wanting to attack my base, What can I do about it. The brief also said that further intelligence was being sought and they were on it. Sounds like everything was being done that could be, what more do you want?

    3: That's from Richard Clarke a proven liar and a man who is bitter over being demoted.

    4: Larry King? Sorry, I need to laugh. That's fiction sir.

    5: That's conjecture. You can't prove that.

    6: Those people aren't subject to the Geneva convention nor are they being tortured.

    7: Abu Ghraib was NOTHING.

    8: So? HE also was not in charge of it when they did it.

    9: Actually, accoording to the Afghan nationals I've talked to, they like the way it is over there right now. They tell me that their country is so much better than it was befor ethe war.

    10: You're not telling the whole story on Haliburton. Congress approved that one my friend.

    John Kerry sir, is no warrior. He self-inflicted wounds to get discharged early. Out of 23 other SWIFT boat commanders that he served with in CD-11, 2 support his candidacy. You're not at all bother by that.

    BTW, why not vote for Nader? Because I'm not a socialist. I vote my conscience, so I'm voting for Badnarik.

    Posted by: skywalker at August 1, 2004 09:15 AM

    Independant voter:

    "Bushs cousin called Fox news at 2AM and told them Bush had won. The other networks jumped on the bandwagon..."

    WOW! I feel so incredible in awe to be watching the ONE news program that has the power (and apparently more power than ALL the voters combined) to decide for the whole nation who is going to be the next president.

    BTW, I have to ask...Are you DF in disquise? If not, you should definatly e-mail him....you two sound like you have alot to talk about and should get along Great!

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at August 1, 2004 09:35 AM

    Hey now, I like DF. Disagree with him immensely but I like him. This guy... I'm not so sure about!

    Posted by: skywalker at August 1, 2004 10:50 AM

    LOL!
    Sorry skywalker...didn't mean to offend you.:-P

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at August 1, 2004 11:13 AM

    I like the main post :
    And it leads us right to my main prediction. World is heading for a severe depression 30's like.
    Reasons are about the same. Corporations have too much power and lower wages ... in the end there is over production, deflation in prices and inability to pay back debts ...
    Big crisis. And all is solved in a huge inflation reducing debt amounts.

    Bush has been playing a part in that scheme, with tax cuts for the richest and not that dire repression against CEO scums as you put it.

    look around you'll see more and more people favoring protectionism (taxes on imports) ... This was also the case in the 30's and it will worsen recession as it did in the 30's.

    Yet the only way out of protectionnism is the slow creation of a world government ... some world regulations (child labor, union rights, financial rules against tax heavens and financial crime ...)

    I agree that there is far too many rules ... That's a proof of the impotence of the rulers. In fact the governments in all country are managing their country, managing economy health ... So they make up rules everyday, all the time. The rulers, parliaments, and judges ... are forgotten eaten by lobbies ... I mean there's no decent piece of rule to be remembered in the last years. Think about the constitution makers . Think about the creators of bretton woods. Too many rules kill the power of the rule. Just like to much tax reduces the taxing base (as people stop declaring revenues).


    And back to skywalker ... PLease get this FACT in your head.
    In the Abu ghraib prison, cases of DEATHS are investigated, Abnormal deaths, say MURDER, and there are also beating cases.
    So it's not a "joking thing". At all. (Unless you would enjoy being beaten and may be killed in a foreign prison)

    Please show some respect for those who died.

    Some french prisonners recently released from Guantanamo by the US authorities have talked about cruel punishments ... I suppose truth will eventually come out if torture has happened there.

    The US supreme court has already ruled that the detention of humans without providing them with means to prove that they are innocent is unconstitutionnal.
    Trials are under way and we'll see how many people are freed.

    Guantanamo was the first step in distorting laws to suit repression "needs".
    Can't you see it ?

    I'm pretty sure the guantanamo decision clearly paved the way for European opposition to the iraki war. If you start invoking technicalities to deprive humans to their basic right of fair trial how far can you go ?

    You tell me ?

    Posted by: DF at August 2, 2004 05:58 AM

    Hey, by the way.

    I like this web site. I like the design more and more. I think it's improving. Looking back, the first was a bit depressive when I think of it.

    After all this time, i feel attached to most of you : muddy, mrs muddy and sky.
    Depending on how har I feel your view you are lying even to your self to protect friends or other issues I can really dislike you. But all in all I enjoy the discussion. I read a lot on Moore's film (still unseen) thanks to sky, indirectly.

    I just can't talk to cwilly. He's far to extreme.


    I also believe I share some of the view's exposed here, sympathetic to the less rules, less corporations and less government cases.

    I believe less rules passes through stronger rules.

    Let me tell you a story. I spent one week with the choir I'm in in an old castle in the south west of france. Wonderful "vacations", intense emotions and I could say spiritual experiences ... We sing traditional songs of all europe.

    And ... One evening a child hurted his knee. he was unable to move his left leg. And noone could force it to move.

    His dad drove him to the hospital.
    No papers were asked. Just and adress.
    The bill will be send there. (a wrong adress could have been given probably)

    And 70% of the amount will be paid by the social security.

    It is a fact that having one single social security providing one single covering scheme to which all citizens contribute reduce the managing costs of the scheme. Less time spent for checks of the solvability of the patient ...

    Think of it. And France spends less for health than the US does. ANd so do all the european countries. (and each european country has a different system, I'm not saying the french one is the best it has lot's of problems).

    Posted by: DF at August 2, 2004 06:18 AM

    "After all this time, i feel attached to most of you : muddy, mrs muddy and sky."

    So...what exactly do you feel "attached" to? My feisty disposition? My smart elik come backs? Or my wonderful ability to ignore you (to a certain degree) after being annoyed (and even sometimes disgusted) by the majority of what you say.?

    As far as the web design goes...yes, I think the first one was more "depressive" too (although, it did - IMO - look more "business" like. Which is probably *why* it look more depressive). But I think Muddy did a good job with it. Of course, he *did* get ALOT of help from some friendly little elves (me and Skywalker).

    One last thing I will personally say about Abu ghraib (other than the fact that the people involved are being punished) is that, I *still* don't know who these *detainees* are/were. I've never seen clairification of that. Were they terroists? Suspected terroists? Associated with terrorists? What? *I* have no clue and therefore cannot make a proper "judgement call" so to speak. As far as the torture thing goes...yes, I've heard about some specifics of what supposedly happened. However, I will also say that *now*, I'm even questioning what some people mean by "torture" or even what some people's *definition* of torture is (and NOW I'm even refering to other instances that have nothing to do wiht this scandle). Did you know that truth serum is classified as torture? I think the real name for it is Sodium pentothal (skywalker and cwilli might want to clarify that one for me). I recently found this out myself. Although, some say truth serum may not be all that effective...it's still noted as being torturous. I find that strange and stupid myself. Of course, there's alot about the stuff that I don't know about it but that's not my point.

    I just found it interresting personally. All in all, I'm personally more upset by the beheadings that have happened than what went on in a prison that no one can seem to give propper clarification about anyway.

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at August 2, 2004 09:25 AM

    I dunno. Being attached does not mean to like someone. I believe that in order to hate, you need to feel attached. Feeling attached is the opposite of ignoring. It's when you start to care. Wether it's for loving or hating. Both being often related anyway.

    I guess you have some gentle dispositions ... Although of course ... you must know that I believe that you all are in error and I am the one explaining it all to you ... Which of course is a very displeasant attitude. I would hate anyone trying to teach me things I believe-know false ... And especially if they turn right ... :-)

    any way, try to have a look at this page, very short page, it sums it up in very simple terms.
    http://www.321gold.com/editorials/benson/benson073004.html

    Some people still believe in gold standard, those are against state intervention, I believe you would be sympathetic to their cause on many issues. You can also have a look at www.mises.org these people are crazy but knowing the people here I guess you would buy into their stuff...

    Any way.

    As far as the prisonners are concerned ... Well as you may know they were not judged yet, so they were presumed innocents. They were suspected however for most of those concerned by the torture of being involved in "terrorist" operations (braquets meaning, some of the people in Irak believe that their country is being wrongly occupied by a foreign army and that they need to take arms to oust the invadres out ... so they would label themselves "resistants"... This is why the sooner there will be elections, the better)

    I think one can debate what "torture" is in relation to "cruel punishment" and "psychological preparation" ...

    But would you discuss the definition of :
    - injury
    - death

    If not, and since cases of injuries inflicted on prisonners by soldiers and case of abnormal deaths are being investifated ... Then there is a well funded horror sentiment in learing that american soldiers purposefully injured and killed people who were detained prisonners before they faced any judge ...

    same goes for guantanamo.
    People have been held 3 years. They never were presented with any accusation that they could have a chance to contest, never had access to a fair trial ...

    Things are simple in a democratic country each citizen has a right to a fair trial. Democrats (not the party, the true meaning of the word, those for democracy i e against feudal system) oppose those who deny the rights to all to have a fair trial.


    And this is why people are more shocked by murders committed secretly by the armed forces of a democratic country, than by murders committed openly by terrorist in favor of a theocratic country.

    If the US troops begin acting like terrorists, waging wars preemptively on wrong motives, killing innocent civilians, jailing with no trials ... where is the difference ?

    Why should anyone side with a government which is heading the country and the world OUT of democracy, disrespecting the basic human rights ...
    You get the idea i guess.

    And you'll see on the web if you look for them conspiracy theories, explaining that bush and al quaida work hand in hand to destroy democracy.
    Their opposition is openly displayed in order to hide their common objective : conqueer the world, destroy the citizen's pride, wage religiours wars ...

    I'm not part of this paronoiacs ... But without any intent it is clear that repression and rebellion feed each other.

    During the algerian war, France faced 2 coup d'etat from the military in 1958 and 1961. In 1958 the general De Gaulle saved democracy in France by proposing changes in the constitution and becoming the new president of France.
    In 1962 people tried to assassinate him.

    It is self evident for all those with a brain that democracy will become under severe strain in the present "war on terror".
    Remember the US with japanese origins sent into camps during the 2nd world war, remember Mac Carthysm, look closely at Guantanamo, the patriot act ...
    Less and less people vote already and votes have less and less influence on corporations ... so terrorism and repression will have an easier job in destroying democracy.

    And this is where the economic collapse is needed. The elite needs to be frightened so much it will need the rest of the world to turn to it's rescue. Right now it is all too happy behind it's fences. Think of the space war program, US military spending, the Israely fence, all those americans living in private area ... It's the same process. The elite feels secure under fences and does not feel the need for the rest of the world.

    I think the only question now that the major crisis in front of us has become inevitable is :
    Will we humans be more intelligent this time and escape a world war.

    Because very often the only time the elite cares for the people is when they carry weapon and die for the country ... Just look at how all the improvements of the working class followed the world wars ...

    Posted by: DF at August 2, 2004 10:52 AM


    DF Quote "I like this web site. I like the design more and more."

    Thanks!

    DF Quote "After all this time, i feel attached to most of you : muddy, mrs muddy and sky."

    *sniff* Thanks man, I was wondering myself where you were.

    It all comes down to were are all human, God gave us free will and it's our choice in the end. As we're brought up in different ideologies we won't agree on everything. Heck even the Mrs. and I disagree on things.

    Posted by: muddy at August 2, 2004 12:35 PM

    skywalker You sir are a LIAR.
    "That is fiction sir" and "I've seen Fahrenheit 9/11" is where you are obviously lying. They play the Clip on Larry King Live of "Bandar Bush" the Saudi Ambassador admitting freely and openly the FACT that 142 Saudi nationals including 24 members of Osama Bin Ladens direct family left the USA by airplane on September 13th 2001. They even show the passenger manifests in the movie. If you had "seen" Fahrenheit 9/11 you would know that this is an indisputable FACT. It is also a FACT the BBC reported the Taliban visit to Texas during Bushs governance and there is even video of the visit in Fahrenheit 9/11. Your other comments are somehow simultaneously uninformed, apathetic, and right wing all at the same time. It's really amazing how you fit so much ignorance and indifference into a human sized package. :)

    I don't think I will be posting on this page in the future, as I do not appreciate the completly hostile wanna-be passive aggressive environment of right wing extremism attempting to disguise itself as "moderate" here.

    For daring to have a differing opinion I have been refered to as an idiot, moron, assinine, ignorant, misinformed, emotional, and even socialist all in this one thread. Forgive me if I feel the need to respond in turn.

    People, please don't listen to right wing extremists like skywalker there. Be a free thinker. Go out and seek the truth for yourself. Cries of "it's the immigrants fault" is what got the Nazis to power back in Germany. Do a Google search on "Bandar Bush" and see what you find.

    The negative, hostile spin of the Republican party won't save George Bush. Mark My Words. John Kerry WILL be the next President of the United States of America.

    Now how do we convince the rest of the world that George Bush was just a fluke? If the rest of the world thinks, that at some point we might just act all freaky for the next four years, how do we convince them things will stay sane here? How do we stop something like this from happening again??

    Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton, Al Gore, Al Sharpton, General Wesley Clark and many other Generals all support John Kerry for a reason. He has actually experienced combat in person. He VOLUNTEERED for duty while all Bush can do is talk tough while sending others to die. (remember the "bring it on" speech?)

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 2, 2004 01:25 PM

    Hey independant voter ...
    Forget them.
    Or try.

    Frankly all this extremism is really interesting to see at times. If you have the time try to look for a post about the beheading of the american guy. The thread was really funny at one time (though the subject of course was not) with this "how can they not see what is a fact". It is a fact that facts that suit ones point a view are always easier to admit. But it's true that on this website facts that do not fit the view take a very very very long way to be swallowed, if they are. And the digestion causes some insults in the process, communist, socialist, moron, being quite common. And you had the chance to escape : coward, member of a third world country, uneducated guy, wrong speller etc.

    If you look in the archives you will see a very interesting link I posted with a very informated critique of Farenheit 9/11. All the facts in the movie are indeed true, but the thesis presented by moore of course is just his and the presentation of some facts and not others is his choice.

    And hey, basically Muddy I'm all in favor of free speech. That's one good thing you have in America. That's why I like ACLU. Here in France the tradition is "no liberty for the ennemies of liberty". So if for instance I would write a racist remark on website, I could be sued, or more easily the website, my remark would then be erased... But tell me, how can you fight ideas if they never appear at the surface ?
    So I like disagreeing with you guys, I could even say I feel it is part of my duty to openly disagree with you ... Somewhere somehow, something good will turn out of all this disagreement and discussions ... Discussion is good. It d be even better of course If I met real people in real bars and we'd had real discussions. But then this is better than nothing. And also international discussions are the first step towards the future international citizenship.

    Posted by: DF at August 2, 2004 01:58 PM

    Hey

    http://www.votenader.org/

    Frankly, i spent 5 minutes reading the website and it's clear. This is the man needed for president. I mean he gets it right.
    Now this is your business of course. But how can you advocate peroutka ? Come on this guy is pro bible and says he is a republican : what a joke ! He'd lead your country into a civil war.
    Nah Nader is far better. And if you look well you'll see that family issues are realy none of his business. Truth is democrats and all the major left parties have spent lots of time defending women, gays, minorities ... Since they betrayed the working class. They thought these fights were more easily winnable. But now is time for a back to basics. Too much money and power in the hands of too few persons... Not enouch checks and balance.


    Posted by: DF at August 2, 2004 02:40 PM

    Thanks DF. It just eludes me how they can ignore all the facts. Seriously skywalker, how can you say John Kerry injured himself?? How can you as a soldier say such things about an honorable man? Which of his THREE Purple Heart metals are you talking about?? Or perhaps you meant he didn't deserve his Bronze or Silver Star?? I hate to ask this, but have you ever taken hostile fire yourself to condemn a man who has?

    I mean really, you rant and rave like a lunatic, and you expect us to believe you instead of the black Reverand who was one of John Kerrys crew mates? "When your life is on the line and you only have seconds to spare, you can count on John Kerry!" Sounds like my next leader to me. Are you saying that a Priest lied?

    Your "fair, balanced" Fox News is being sued for consumer fraud for using such a misleading slogan while being so monumentaly Republican biased, that is what "Outfoxed: Rupert Murdochs War on Journalism" is all about. The CEO and Chairman of Fox News Roger Ailes was also a former Media Strategist for the Nixon, Reagan, and the Bush Senior campaigns. Do you really think that sounds unbiased? When they come on the air and say things like "211 days til George Bush is re-elected." Do you think that is even remotely unbiased? Walter Cronkite himself was completly appalled at the obvious, intentional, unprecedented right wing bias of Fox News.

    If you thought Enrons hold on California was bad listen to this. The Saudis love Bush so much they are even openly manipulting gasoline prices in a vain attempt to get him re-elected. The Saudis are set to pump-up oil production as the election nears to make it look like the economy is doing even better under Bush. Saudi Ambassador Bandar said in an interview on Larry King Live when questioned about this "So what. Doesn't everyone want lower gas prices?" Of course we want lower gas prices, it just bothers us a bit that you are manipulating the market to try and affect our political sytem. These outrageous gas prices are helping fund the Bush campaign, and that to me sounds like more of a conflict of interest than anything Martha Stewart ever did.

    Bush is the first President in history to oppose an investigation after an attack on American soil. We investigated after Pearl Harbor and the Kennedy assasination, but Bush opposed the creation of the 9/11 Comission tooth and nail. If not for the families of the victims of 9/11 and their heartfelt outcry, there would be no 9/11 Comission. Now Bush acts like he supported the Comission all along, instead of fighting against its very creation. Then he has the audacity to call John Kerry "weak on terror". What's weaker than 3 years of inaction??

    So in closing I say to you America, let's get back to being the United States of America instead of this weak imitation of what we once were. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to publicly express an adverse opinion again without having some angry republican jump up in your face? Well the only way that's possible is with the Democrats this year. Don't get me wrong, I'm an Independant to the end, and if a Republican Candidate like John Mcain or Rudy Giuliani ever comes to the Presidential ticket I will be hard pressed to decide, but this year it's easy as pie.

    VOTE JHON KERRY!

    lighten up with non-partisan funny link: www.jibjab.com

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 2, 2004 07:23 PM

    independant, check in google veterans against kerry, you'll get the source of skywalker.
    imho Kerry is no real leader, just like Clinton, his wife looks tougher. Clinton signed that bill that puts a 5 years limit on food stamps. And he was what you call a liberal democrat. what a joke. Clinton's wife had a plan for a complete social security. That's something.

    http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=354&row=0

    If US citizen have any brain, Bush will be under 25% this year. If he get's more, the world will know what to think of the US people.
    In fact the strange thing is that no independant candidate from the right appeared. Where's ross perot ? He'd get a chance. I'm sure many republicans would be happy to drop Bush. I've read in non fiable source that is receiving drugs for depression, and there's a complete book by a famous psychologist on all his probable mental disorders ...

    I think the best situation is a 8% or more nader leading to a bush reelection.
    It will speed the process of change. Bush is a wonderful catalyst of troubles.

    Plus that would force democrats to consider their left wing.

    We've just had this at the presidential election in France in 2002.
    Far right and far left are growing stronger everywhere. Fascism looms in Italy and Austria.
    It's time everywhere to have strong leftwing leaders standing for the working class, the citizen. Time to voice out. Capitalism as we know it is death and dead. Let's build that new ecological world we need.

    By 2008, room will be wide open for a new era of political leaders.
    Things are gonna rock.

    Posted by: DF at August 4, 2004 05:32 AM

    look at the figure of employement in the US and the result on stocks world wide ...

    The end of this kondratiev cycle is there. Provided the figure of next month is as bad, I can guarantee you a BIG economic crisis.

    This is good.

    We're finally getting to face the challenges that have been waiting for 30 years. This is the end of the Reagan/tatcher era. Time for a big crisis on which hope may well again flourish.

    Posted by: DF at August 6, 2004 09:50 AM

    Reagan junior on Bush Junior. You can read it there :

    http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/index.php?id=124

    Posted by: DF at August 6, 2004 11:56 AM

    MORE REASONS BUSH MUST GO:

    Bushs tax cuts for corporations who send jobs out of America have cost us two and half million jobs so far. India does tech support calls for Dell, AOL and countless others. India presently even does income tax returns for U.S. companies. South Korea now is supposed to start outsourcing jobs to Alabama. That's the big economic plan? Make us so poor as a country that other countrys can start using us as cheap labor? Even government jobs are going to India. Eighteen states have their Welfare Department calls routed to a call center in India. What services will our countrys infrastructure outsource next? How many countrys will we depend on for the stability of our government if we send our government infrastructure jobs around the world? General Wesley Clark called Bushs International Policy a "National Disaster" for a reason friends.

    How many lives have we lost needlessly because the Bush administration has banned stem cell research? He literally outlawed the one thing that might have saved Ronald Reagans life. That might be one reason why his son Ron Reagan went to speak at the Democratic National Convention.

    The Bush administration has even sunk so low as to solicit church event organizers to submit thier member lists to Republican Campaign Headquarters. Church event organizers were also asked to orchestrate pro Bush events themselves, in order to bypass the laws regarding politicians organizing political events at churches. Imagine, asking church goers to help you cheat the political system!

    John Mcain (a Republican I respect) condemns those fake ads about John Kerrys war record, and requested that the White House do the same. The soldiers in the commercial didn't even serve in the same swift boat as John Kerry. How can they try to fabricate stories about events they didn't even witness? It's just like back when the Bush campaigners made up a story about John Mcain. They spread some rumor about Mcain fathering an illegitmate child to help Bush win the Republican nomination. Such nonsense.

    We cannot expect people to make good choices when they are purposely misinformed and propagandized by a right wing news organization disguising itself as "fair and balanced" like Fox. There is a reason you are two thirds more likely to be misinformed or indeed straight lied to by Fox news. It is an all year long Republican political ad that may throw in some news just to sound convincing. It's very effective to propagandize someone if they don't realize it's fake. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was making the world think he didn't exist. The CEO of Fox was a Republican Media Strategist for years and uses that experience to attack Democrats and intentionally spin the news so that EVERYTHING Republicans do looks better. The Republican "message of the day" is even repeated constantly by Fox news. Don't take my word for it, just listen for yourself. If you really want fair and balanced news get it from CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, NPR, UPN, or anywhere else but Fox. We can only hope the consumer fraud case against Fox is successful. (see: Outfoxed)

    The dirty, underhanded, misleading politics of the Bush administration just go on and on. I defy anyone to REALLY see Fahrenheit 9/11 and tell me you are still supporting Bush. If you can do that, I can only pray God forgives you, because I don't. Your loyalty while admirable, is entirely misplaced. If you want to vote for the "Saudi, Bush, Haliburton, Nader" (listed in descending order of authority) ticket that is your business. I am proud to say I am voting for America, John Kerry, and John Edwards.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 7, 2004 12:37 PM

    I've basically removed myself from discussion from you since a) you're not going to change your mind about anything, even if God himself came and told you that you were wrong b) you are a socialist and all and c) I'm busy. But I have to respond to a couple points you made.

    First off, corporations do not pay taxes. The never have and they never will. Anyone who says otherwise has not put any analytical thought into it.

    Reason? If taxes are cutting into their profits, they simply increase prices to compensate for profit loss. What does this mena you get? Higher prices, lower wages and higher unemployment. There is a word for this: stagflation.

    Never on that subject is that we had a "scare" about outsourcing 10-15 years ago. I remember that we thought all of our jobs (particularly automobile and electronics job) were going to sent to Japan. What happened? We continued on as we were going. This occurred over the course of the Reagan, Bush 41 and Clinton administrations. What happened? Japanese car manufacturers have all but stopped importing cars from Japan. All popular Japanese cars have American corporations to sell their cars and they are all built in the US. Don't believe me? Go ask a Honda dealer where the Civic is built. I bet muddy knows: he lives there. Electronics industry? Can you say "dot-com" boom (and bust?) The dot-com boom btw occurred due to alot of corporate tax cuts under Reagan which led to increased research and development. This is also one of the reasons why we have much more efficient cars these days. Without that R&D our economy would have tanked during the 90s - which is what happened to the Japanese economy that we feared would steal all of our jobs.

    See, here is the problem: the cost of living in the United States (this began in the mid to late 70s BTW, alot of it due to the "great society reforms") has outgrown the the manufacturing sector. Manufacturing does not pay much. Service sector jobs do. Why do you think the steel industry and the coal industry in this country are dying? It sure isn't need! It's because Americans have an unbelievable standard of living. The cost of which is staggering, due to things like healthcare, cable tv, sattellite internet, transportation, you name it. Even the poorest people (vice, the people who are homeless) have a standard of living above that of the highest standard of living in many countries.

    To continue to have an economy with these substantial costs means shipping manufacturing overseas where labor is cheap or start having kids mine for coal part-time after school. You may say, well why not shift some of the burden for health care, et cetera to the government. Well, sir first let's look at what government does right. List the things government does well. I can think of one: build (but not design) roads. The government screws up healthcare already, why make them the people in charge of it?! In Canada, you have to wait upwards of 6 months to get an MRI due to the lackof doctors (due to poor pay) and trained personel. Here in the US, where we have private health care, I can go out of my house in the morning and get and MRI by walking into a place up the street from me. If I need to see a doctor for a physical, I can get one tomorrow. If I have a tooth knocked out, a dentist will fix it tonight. Other countries who has socialized medicine, simply do not have the access we have. What we should do is get government farther OUT of healthcare and stop giving ungodly malpractice judgements for frivolous lawsuits (a loser pays system sounds good to me.) If you think I'm wrong, look at driver's licenses. Compare the states where private companies hand them out to the states wher ethe government does it. Here in Georgia you now have to get an appointment do do anything with your driver's license. It take a minimum of 6 weeks. As for how this will ehlp the economy? Well, we'd need to cut defense and intelligence spendiing (which btw, is okay with John Kerry, within months of the first trade center bombing in 1993, he tried to cut intelligence spending by 7 million (or was it billion? I can't remember) across the board! Sounds like a man I want criticizing our intelligence incapabilities. Especially coming fromt he party that implemented the recommendations of the church commission, which many experts (and myself) believe lead to our poor intelligence on al-Quaeda and Iraq for that matter.) We would have to cut government worker and military pay. We'd also have to cut politician pay, but I'm okay with that. With all that, we'd still need to raise taxes and probably implement indirect taxes (which I think we shoudl switch to completely.) As far as I am concerned, I think there is a strong link to the fact that we are one of the most powerful (economically) nations in the industrialized world (most powerful when you consider our labor costs) has a strong connection to us being the least taxed nation in the industrialized world. Unless you're a Marxist or Keynesian Economist, you'll agree that economic law dictates that you control inflation by raising taxes, and you boost economic growth with lower taxes.

    In the 1980s there was a major economic shift where we began losing our manufacturing jobs to other countries like China, Vietnam, Brazil and Korea. In exchange we got a vast service sector. The people who lost their manufacturing jobs? They did one of four things: a) retired if they were of that age b) if they were young they retrained. They became mechanics, tv repairmen, telephone repairmen. Some went to college and became the boss of many of the people they used to work with. c) some took what manufacturing jobs were left when other young people decided to retrain before they lsot their job, or old people retired or in the now booming car industry or d) They were stupid and didn't take any initiative to leave themselves outs, or to retrain after they lost their job - boohoo I say for the guys under (d).

    This is the reason the more people today graduate from college with at least a Bachelor's degree, than even considered applying to college 20 years ago.

    Bottom line: we have a capitalist economy society. Part of the American dream is working hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps. When adversity comes our way, we push through it. Not to mention that Teresa Heinz-Kerry owns a large portion (These largest I believe) of the Heinz Corporation - a company who recently has been outsourcing jobs.

    Now, you say Bush has banned stem cell research. Sorry sir, I'm going to call you on that one. He has not banned it. That is an outright lie. He has banned federal funding of it. Frankly, I don't care either way (except I don't think it is a proper function of government.) If there was a future in it, or thought to be, then private companies would be pouring millions into it. Just liek they ar epouring millions into AIDS research. Heck, they're doing that and most of them think that it is futile.

    Sir, the Democrats solicit black churches and episcopal churches to do that same thing. So let's be fair on that one. Our campaign laws are about screwy as it is, so both sides find every possible way to get around them.

    Sir, I ask you to cite me one example of blatant bias in Fox News reporting of the news. Not in commentary, but reporting of the news. I bet you can't do it.

    I think you ignore the fact that some of Fox News reporters and commentators are rabid liberals (Alan Colmes, Greta Van Susteren, Susan Estrich) and Then there is Bill O'Reilly who is about as unbiased as you can get.

    Sir, I've seen Fox News slam republican pretty hard. But you don't watch Fox News do you? I bet you also ignore the fact that ABC news is owned by Disney, a huge contributor to several Democrat and Republican candidates. But the vast majority of which goes to Senator Fritz Hollings (D) of South Carolina. A man who has been a huge defender of the DMCA, has tried to push through the CBDPTA and helped write the PATRIOT Act (as did John Kerry BTW.)

    I don't know how anyone could even hope to prove consumer fraud.

    You comment about John McCain shows you're "Independent Voter" moniker is basically blogna.

    Look, I don't see what is so horrible about the ad. It was funded by some of the same people who fund the GOP. Is anyone really surprised?

    Do I think Kerry is a hero for pulling Rasmussen (sic?) out of the water that day? You're damn right I do. Do I think he earned is third purple heart? Yes. But I think the fact that he refuses to tell us what he got the first 2 for (which neither took him off of full duty, when a jammed finger can get you light-duty) and these men say they were band-aid purple hearts and at least one came from himself botching the destruction of a rice truck (not to mention that his CO at first refused his first purple heart as his crew said they never encountered the enemy!) The statement that they didn't serve ont he same boat sir, is meaningless. Anyone who makes that statement has never been in the military. Int he Marine Corps we have the phrase "It's a small corps after all." The Navy isn't much bigger. Trust me, we hear about the details of what goes on in units that are in other countries, much less the shop down the hall (or in this case, the boat that is 100 feet away.) You don't have to be on the ship to see what they're doing, to hear radio communications or hear gunfire or read after action reports.

    By the way, they are medals, not metals.

    Look sir, many despicable men have done great and honorable things. Likewise many great men have done despicable things. Just look at my Hero, Thomas Jefferson: great man who was continuously in debt, and had many affairs including his oh so scandalous love affair which btw, was no secret at the time, with his Slave Sally Hemmings. He was a racist, and approved strongly of slavery. Does his hideous ideas and actions take anything away from his greatness? No. (BTW, he also had a very unpopular war for several years ina far off land due to his lack of a want to pay a small fortune every year to another country to keep their pirates from attacking our ships, which is what congress wanted to do since they had only attacked one of our ships at that point, and even though other countries had done so only to continue recieving attacks. The result was that Jefferson recieved no "declaration of war" but what is basically an authorization for use of force if necessary -same as Iraq- and he sent hte navy and Marine to invade Tripoli, which they conquered with a Naval bombardment, and a 500 mile march through the Arabian Desert byt he Marines. Following this they assisted the former Monarch who the returned the country to, by securing the country from the Barbary pirates for quite some time and thus was the first regime change the US effected through the use of force.)

    Similarly, Abraham Lincoln's freeing the slaves would have been concelled, had the war ended before a certain date. Lincoln was a racist. He believed blacks shouldn't be enslaved, but he also beleive they were incapable of proper education and would never really be able to take care of themselves. He would likely have never freed the slaves without the civil war - ironic being that his electionw as the final straw for the south which thought he would free the slaves post-haste.

    You asked how I as a soldier can not support an "honorable man. Well, if I were a soldier maybe I would, I don't really know, Army folks are kind of weird. But I am NOT a soldier. I am a United States Marine. Big difference bub. But hey, you're jsut showing your further ignorance of the military. Well here: members of the Air Force are airmen, the Army soldiers the Navy sailors, and the Marine Corps members are Marines. It's really simple, I don't appreciate someone who lies tot he senate about his service (he claims to have committed war crimes like "so many other 1000s of soldiers did" even though no one else in his unit, at least two other boats of which would have been with his on every mission, remembers every burning a village (unless they found VC stockpiles in it, at which point accoording to the Geneva convention it is a military compound) or raping women, or murdering civilians (though, the story goes that Kerry killed a wounded man at point blank range to get his bronze star, but I doubt he would have done that.)

    As for Abu Ghraib, frankly sir, the order from on high actually was that they could make prisoners to eat MREs instead of a hot meal (though that statement is misleading, as an MRE comes with something to heat up the food with, not to mention that they are VERY filling) they could be made to stand for long periods of time, lied to for information, rewarded for good behavior and have privileges lost for bad behavior. Rumsfield actually changed his mind about makign them stand for long periods of time though, he said that might be to harsh. Sounds like orders for torture from on high to me!

    I bet if put in a Parris Island platoon for 2 weeks and then given the choices between Abu Ghraiba nd continuing on at Parris Island, they'd take the prison any day of the week and 10 times on Sunday.

    Im not voting for Bush btw, I am voting for Badnarik. If I had to choose between Kerry and Bush though, I'd take Bush (despite his screwing the Marines over several times now, and basically taking us for granted.)

    Oh, and btw, I have seen Fahrenheit 9/11. I had two free passes, me and a friend went. I love how he lied and quoted people out of context. But, Michael Moore has done that before: "Roger and Me".

    Posted by: skywlaker at August 9, 2004 10:04 PM

    Just a small addendum: the majority of corporations in the highest tax bracket, are small businesses whose payrolls live and die by the smallest of margins. Just something to think about.

    Posted by: skywlaker at August 9, 2004 10:47 PM

    Everyone is down on corporations, as am I when they are corrupt. What people fail to realize is the MOST corporations started out as a small business. Small business is the fabric of this country.

    Also it is a contradiction to say that you are pro jobs and anti corporations. That makes no sense at all yet I hear that from so many people.

    Posted by: cwilli at August 10, 2004 08:56 AM

    anyone who is anti-jobs either wants to be on welfare forever or does not like Apple. (if you have to think about it, I'm not going to explain it)

    Also if your anti-corporation then your mis-informed. I'm not anti-corporation, only against the soulless and heartless fools running some of them.

    Posted by: muddy at August 11, 2004 03:09 AM

    Once again Bush is showing you what kind of man he really is. Hiding behind a completely Republican funded political group who is spewing lies about John Kerry. Bush wasn't even man enough to show up for reserve duty, but he encourages these malicious cowardly lies about John Kerrys FIVE medals. (2 for Bravery and 3 for being wounded in battle on 3 seperate occasions)

    I never realized what a weak and timid little creature George Bush truly is until now. If he could, he would hide behind his Momma to avoid a real fight. Look what he's up to now. George is trying to convince British Prime Minister Tony Blair to come to the USA to accept The Congressional Medal of Honor for his support of the Iraq war. Blair has refused for more than a year now, BECAUSE THE WAR ISN'T OVER YET. (someone tell Bush) I don't think he particularly wants to be Bushs pawn during an election year either.

    I can't wait for the Presidential Debate. Then we will see little Georgy truly crumble under pressure. John Kerry was captain of the debate team in highscool, and we all know Bush is a moron of imeasureable proportions. I hope Kerry asks him straight out about his refusing to condemn these nonsensical attack ads. Watch Bush squirm, then say he condemned them all along. There is your flip flopper. George W Bush. The W stands for WUSS!


    Defending his record, the Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry said, "Thirty years ago, official Navy reports documented my service in Vietnam and awarded me the Silver Star, the Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts."

    "Thirty years ago, this was the plain truth. It still is. And I still carry the shrapnel in my leg from a wound in Vietnam."

    Recalling when his boat came under attack more than 30 years ago, Jim Rassmann says, "It blew me off the boat. All those Viet Cong were shooting at me. I expected I'd be shot. When he pulled me out of the river, he risked his life to save mine."

    John Kerry said:

    "More than 30 years ago I learned an important lesson. When you're under attack the best thing to do is turn your boat into the attack. That's what I intend to do today."

    Speaking of the organization airing the ads that challenge his war record, Kerry said, "Of course, this group isn't interested in the truth and they're not telling the truth. ...

    "But here's what you really need to know about them. They're funded by hundreds of thousands of dollars from a Republican contributor out of Texas. They're a front for the Bush campaign. And the fact that the President won't denounce what they're up to tells you everything you need to know. He wants them to do his dirty work."


    Now there is a man who stands up for himself.

    John Kerry I salute you, and I would like to apologize for the slanderous lies you have had to deal with on your way to the Whitehouse. I appreciate your dedication and your extensive public service, and on behalf of all Americans I would like to say THANK YOU so much for enduring it all.

    George Bush: I'm sure we can all laugh about your ridiculous administration later, but right now, it's just not funny. I really don't know why it surprised me so much that you would send someone else to fight your battles, that has always been your standard operating procedure. Be a man for once in your life. Please get the hell out of the Whitehouse now and stop making our country look like it's run by a slightly trained monkey.

    VOTE INDEPENDANT AND NOT JOHN KERRY OR GEORGE BUSH!

    skywalker: I will not even bother to comment on any of your ridiculous posts anymore, so please do not address me personally in the future. Feel free to comment on anything I say, just don't bother to direct your venom, personal insults and hatred at me. Your neanderthal view of the world obviously has no place in intelligent conversation. I do NOT wish to converse with you AT ALL. Thanks.

    VOTE INDEPENDANT AND NOT KERRY OR BUSH!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 23, 2004 07:46 PM

    I couldn't resist answering a few points this ONE LAST TIME.

    I know it's medals not metals the same same way you probably know it's bologna not blogna.

    I was asking if you are a "fighting man" when I said soldier. If I was curious as to your branch I could have asked if you are a flyboy, dogface, jarhead or squid. I also asked if you had ever faced hostile fire in your life to so condemn a man who has. (forgot that one did you?)

    John Kerry never claimed to have comitted war crimes. That's just plain dishonesty. He heard storys from many men who did. That's what he was talking about in this clip from CNN.

    "The latest ad, a 30-second spot released Friday, uses segments from Kerry's testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in 1971. In the ad, Kerry says, "They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads," "randomly shot at civilians," and "razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn."

    The ad does not include Kerry's preface, in which he said he is reporting what others said at a Vietnam veterans conference. Instead, a swift boat group member refers to the statements as "accusations" Kerry made against Vietnam veterans."

    Talk about running scared. This campaign will try anything to save itself.There was even a Bush campaign advisor in one of the "dishonest and dishonorable" attack commercials.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/21/edwards.swiftboat/index.html

    Recent Republican propaganda seems to desperately point out Richard Clark as the person who allowed 142 Saudi Nationals (24 members of Osamas direct family) to fly out of the coutry on September 13th 2001. Apparently Richard Clark was the highest authority in the land for a while? No wait, it was George Bush wasn't it? Yeah that's right it was. Even though the entire country was grounded including George Bush senior, somehow Clark had the authority to let planes leave? Please, what a joke.

    No one believes anything you say anymore Mr. Bush, and we certianly aren't buying that incredibly obvious lie. (everytime something bad happens in intelligence, we blame Clark, OK?)

    Our current President has ZERO crediblity worldwide and that is just one of the multitude of reasons he must go. Millions of AMERICANS can't stand Bush, why would other countrys like him?

    When Bush decided not to fire Rumsfield he sealed his own fate. The American people will not allow the horrors of Abu Ghraib to go unpunished.

    Rumsfield was right when he said "watch how our Democracy deals with adversity".

    I say to you watch as we take back the Whitehouse from a madman. If Bush won't make Rumsfield pay for these atrocities, the American people will make Bush pay. We will lead by example.

    VOTE INDEPENDANT AND NOT KERRY OR BUSH!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 23, 2004 08:45 PM

    For someone who so dislikes personal insults, you hurl them. No I've never been in combat, not that it has any bearing. And I have no such neanderthal view nor do I have any hatred. I think you're an idiot, but that doesn't mean I hate you.

    And since you're ignorant enough to have never heard the senate tape where John Kerry says and I quote "I committed atrocities as so many other thousands of other men did." Sorry I can't define that any other way but to say that's admitting to war crimes.

    BTW, what was so horrid at Abu Ghraib, and who that comitted the crimes (except for perhaps some officers who may have allowed it to happen, which is something I have a problem with myself) is going unpnished?

    Posted by: skywalker at August 23, 2004 09:03 PM

    I wrote VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    The website owner MODIFIED MY POST!

    Nice one there muddy, a real sense of integrity here. That's just wrong.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 24, 2004 02:42 PM

    It just goes to show you how scared the Republicans really are. There is a LANDSLIDE coming in November. Be ready for a HUGE VICTORY.

    Now you modify my post out of fear?? What's up with that muddy?? You didn't like my opinion so you decided to make it look different? Man that is just more of the same dishonest dishonorable stuff all the Republicans are doin this year. THAT IS LAME AND WRONG. But don't worry muddy, I saved the original posts.

    Mark my words. John Kerry will be the next President of the United States of America. Lies and spin won't save you. BYE BYE BUSH.

    Posted by a registered independant voter who completely supports John Kerry.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 24, 2004 02:53 PM

    I simply helped you out. You claim to be an independent voter, if that is true then you would not be voting for Kerry. I simply changed it to what you were meaning to say. Your most Welcome.

    Posted by: muddy at August 24, 2004 03:08 PM

    I am an independant who can see through the lies of the Bush Administration.

    You had NO RIGHT to insert your opinion into my post. That is putting words into my mouth.

    I will be sure to post the originals around the net. Thanks for admitting it was you, that shows some guts, but it shows no honesty.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 24, 2004 03:16 PM

    Muddy,

    Great site. Long time reader, 1st time poster. What I just read suprised me. You censored Independent Voter. Independent may or not be this person's political party. It does not matter. They have a right to vote for and endorse anyone they choose. We all know that only John Kerry has a chance of sending bush (not capitalized on purpose) back to Texas (and John Kerry will be our next president). This person may be an independent voter because they "think" independently. Anyhow, I am very disappointed in you Muddy.

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 24, 2004 05:08 PM

    Muddy,

    Great site. Long time reader, 1st time poster. What I just read disgusted me. You censored Independent Voter. Independent may or not be this person's political party. It does not matter. They have a right to vote for and endorse anyone they choose. We all know that only John Kerry has a chance of sending bush (not capitalized on purpose) back to Texas (and John Kerry will be our next president). This person may be an independent voter because they "think" independently. Anyhow, I am very disappointed in you Muddy. And for Independant Voter, a 21 KERRY Salute!


    Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry Vote John Kerry

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 24, 2004 05:13 PM

    Sorry about the double post. As I said, I am a first time poster. Wanted to ad to my post and thought that I could use the backspace to update it. Muddy, you do have my permission to delete the 1st post I left at 5:08 pm. Thank you.

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 24, 2004 05:22 PM

    The last two posts were made by someone other than me. His name was IamvotingforJohnKerry 5 minutes ago, and now muddy changed it to mine.

    Your desperation is hilarious muddy.

    When you don't have a leg to stand on you just change what people said. A true ditto Republican. Repeating lies does not eventually make them into reality my friend.

    See ya in November ;)

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 24, 2004 05:43 PM

    I hate to tell you, but muddy is ANYTHING but a republican. He's one of the few truly independent people out there that I've ever met. And the only modification he made was as a joke, get over it man.

    But you're the one who claims to be an independent voter yet you sound a lot like liberal democrat.

    Posted by: skywalker at August 24, 2004 06:29 PM

    [Quote]The last two posts were made by someone other than me. His name was IamvotingforJohnKerry 5 minutes ago, and now muddy changed it to mine.

    Your desperation is hilarious muddy.[/Quote]

    Uh.. your acting like two diff people and playing games. Not that I have to explain myself to someone like you however it's good to be honest. You should know I love you man and wish only the best for your two personalities. "My desperation"? That is amusing at best, your the one TALKING IN CAPS throwing yourself all over an admitted war criminal who has yet to go to trial over his crimes. I do believe the term you were looking for is "Your Desperation" as it's obvious at this point your candidate will not win, however sadly mine most likely won't either. Best of luck to you both. (or is there another personality waiting in the shadows?) To quote a famous show.."Only the Shadow knows!" *chuckle*

    Posted by: muddy at August 24, 2004 06:51 PM

    I assume if you have any technical knowledge whatsoever that my IP is logged at your site, therfore I am not silly enough to try and act like two people. Also if you have any technical knowledge you would also know that you are only getting the IP of my router. My "other personality" as you refer to it is just another person behind our 8 port router and the wireless acesspoint who is a friend of mine that I showed your "joke" of changing what I said in my post. He was so pissed I couldn't stop him from posting if I tried.

    Mark my words. John Kerry will be the next President of the United States of America. :)

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 24, 2004 08:24 PM

    If he is, I'm fulfilling my military obligations and leaving. I said the same thing about Al Gore. Same goes for Nader.

    If your friend got pissed over that then your friend has anger issues and yes both muddy and I know about IPs and routers. My degree is in computer-engineering and a minor in history (though that may turn into a second degree.) That's not mentioning that I used to run cabling for and setup the software and other hardware for networks. Muddy works with networks. We know, trust me.

    BTW, he didn't censor anyone, though he has a right to if he likes, it is his site. Freedom of speech only protects you from the government.

    Just for fun would you answer a few questions for me? Just a simple yes, no or maybe answer. No elaboration.

    The government should not censor speech, press, media or Internet?

    Military service should be voluntary, there should be no draft?

    There should be no laws regarding sex for consenting adults?

    Repeal laws prohibiting possession and use of drugs?

    There should be no national ID card?

    End corporate welfare, no government handouts to business?

    End government barriers to international free trade?

    Let people control their own retirement and privatize social security?

    Replace government welfare with private charity?

    Cut taxes and government spending by 50% or more?

    Repeal the income tax (16th amendment) and replace it with the national retail sales tax as outlined in John Linder's FairTax bill? http://www.fairtax.org

    Posted by: skywalker at August 24, 2004 10:31 PM

    [sarcasm]I don't think IV can handle yes and no questions.[/sarcasm]

    Posted by: muddy at August 24, 2004 11:03 PM

    Intelligent people the world over are coming together to support John Kerry. Ten Nobel Prize winning economists joined forces to write an open letter to the public endorsing John Kerry as the next President of the United States of America.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5818277

    George W B*tch meanwhile is busy coordinating attacks against a war hero, with claims like "he shouldn't have brought up his war record if he didn't want it challenged". Which sounds an awful lot like when rape suspects blame what a woman was wearing for their actions. (If she didn't want to be raped she shouldn't have advertised the fact that she's pretty.)While the Bush campaign claims no ties to Swift Boaters for Lies, a second campaign worker has retired from the Bush campaign. This time it is Bushs top campaign Legal Advisor Benjamin Ginsburg.

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/25/ginsberg.swiftboat/index.html

    Muddy the reason your actions upset me so much, is because you have taken my precious political opinion and changed the text so that it looks like I support your views, which I do not. Suppose for a second that I had intended some political career later on in life, then the opposition gets a hold of my words that you have twisted. I would have to defend myself and my views because Muddy thought it would be funny to make it look like we agree. If you wanted to only hear your own opinion repeated back to you, why open a discussion forum? I thought we were here to discuss things. You could just as easily sit in a corner somewhere mumbling to yourself if your voice is all you want to hear.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 26, 2004 09:31 AM

    P.S.

    Approximately 40 more charges regarding Abu Ghraib were brought forth in two new Army reports yesterday.

    Military Intelligence Colonel Thomas Pappas is one of those who is set to be charged, as well as some 26 other Military Intelligence personell.

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 26, 2004 09:43 AM

    Oops, forgot to sign, sorry.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 26, 2004 09:44 AM

    I don't think he answered any of your questions, skywalker. Or did I misread?:-P

    "Suppose for a second that I had intended some political career later on in life, then the opposition gets a hold of my words that you have twisted. I would have to defend myself and my views because Muddy thought it would be funny to make it look like we agree."

    IV: If that is the *worst* thing that you would have to *ever* "defend" in your whole entire life then you have NOTHING to worry about and your political career (if you wanted one) would be smooth sailing.

    It's muddy's site, he can do with it what he wants. You don't like it? Well, I'm sure there are other places for you to go and express your opinion.

    Oooppss....I almost forgot:


    VOTE BADNARIK
    VOTE PEROUTKA
    VOTE GOERGE W. BUSH
    VOTE OLLIE NORTH
    VOTE BUGS BUNNY
    VOTE BETTY BOOP
    VOTE MARVIN THE MARTIAN
    VOTE FOR MY LITTLE WHITE A** (JUST NOT FOR THE WHOLE PERSON BTW)

    AND SCREW JOHN F****ING KERRY AND BRING HIM UP ON WAR CRIMES (since *HE'S* the one the admited to commiting them himself)

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at August 26, 2004 10:33 AM

    IV: A) why don't you answer my questions? They're very simple questions about where you stand on certain issues. Is that so bad?

    B) Are you surprised charges were brought? I'm not, I've said fromt he beginning what these people did was wrong and they'll be court martialed. It was not however, "torture."

    C) Umm so what, Ginsburg gave them legal advice. How about how many millions of dollars are being spent by similar groups which Kerry's lawyers are giving legal advice to? Do they get a pass from you?

    D) Why don't we talk about Kerry's Senate record? What has he done in the senate that makes you think he'll be a good president? Did he have perfect attendance for the intelligence comittee? Bring for a great number of important bills?

    E) Hey, They're right, Bush didn't bring up Kerry's Vietnam service. In fact in 1992, Kerry said it shouldn't be a campaign issue what a person did or did not do in Vietnam. Anytime you make something a forefront issue, you can expect to get attacked on it. That's politics. Kerry decided to make that the basis on which he ran, so a group of people who served with him got together to expose him. They're already making him backtrack on his first purple heart. Kerry asks Bush to condemn this group, so Bush says, No I condemn all groups (which I think is wrong, all the groups have a right to say whatever they want) and Kerry says no, you should only condemn this group. "All for us, none for you" liberal opinions.

    I think I'm a fair guy, when Bush does something I think is crap, I'll call him on it. Like his and Rumsfield's horrid mismanagement of Al-Sadr and the Sunni triangle. Or his opposition to free speech (Kerry's also.) So I'm calling Kerry on his BS too.

    Like this one: Bush says he wants to further look into the FairTax plan. Kerry says that the FairTax plan will increase the burden on the poor. Which means he's either not read the bill (typical) or he is lying (typical.) The bill is written so that it will specifically lessen the burden on the poor. As long as the poor people aren't spending gobs of money on luxury items, they'll actually have more money to spend.

    Bush's latest BS? Condemning 527 groups, which is subsequent to his BS of signing and not vetoing the McCain Feingold bill, which limits free speech.

    Come on IV, you need to be fair here. Accoording to you, since he's a war hero, he can do no wrong. Sorry, but that war hero refused to fund my unit and caused me not to get paid for a month. You don't think that was wrong?

    Posted by: skywalker at August 26, 2004 11:21 AM

    REPOST
    skywalker: I will not even bother to comment on any of your ridiculous posts anymore, so please do not address me personally in the future. Feel free to comment on anything I say, just don't bother to direct your venom, personal insults and hatred at me. Your neanderthal view of the world obviously has no place in intelligent conversation. I do NOT wish to converse with you AT ALL. Thanks.
    REPOST

    Muddy, you are betraying the publics trust when you change the text of my post. I am posting as I am sure we all are, because I feel my opinion needs to be heard. When you change my opinion to suit you, you have dealt me a great injustice unless I defend myself. Suppose for a second (I know you will like this one) that I had been injured or killed, never to return here and call Muddy out on changing my post. I could literally have gone to my grave with people thinking that Muddys opinions were my own. If you think that's OK or funny I have to wholeheartedly disagree. I came here by accident while searching Google for the phrase "Americans' incomes fell for two years", and I joined the conversation, like I am sure many others did. I won't run away from the conversation just because you disagree with me. As I said before, why have a discussion forum at all if you just want to hear your own opinion repeated. You guys have some pretty outlandish opinions to begin with, I don't know why you are so surprised to find people willing to disagree with you.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 26, 2004 12:05 PM

    IV:

    "Suppose for a second (I know you will like this one) that I had been injured or killed..."

    First off, no one especially my husband would "like this one"! He would not "like" nor would he wish you or anyone else injury, harm nor to be killed!

    "I could literally have gone to my grave with people thinking that Muddys opinions were my own."

    With all due respect, who cares! You're being a little dramatic there. Besides, what do YOU care about what complete strangers - who would just *happen* to stumble across your changed comment - would think about you and your opinions anyway. I'm sure you leave your own legacy behind with your own family and friends and anyone else who knows you on a personal basis. Those people know the real you and would see to it your words would live on - somehow. Everyone else wouldn't really matter in that area. Besides, No one who *stumbles* upon your comments here even knows your *real* name to begin with so it's not like they could really trace it back to you personally.

    "skywalker: I will not even bother to comment on any of your ridiculous posts anymore, so please do not address me personally in the future."

    IV: Then maybe you could answer a few yes or no questions for *me*:


    The government should not censor speech, press, media or Internet?

    Military service should be voluntary, there should be no draft?

    There should be no laws regarding sex for consenting adults?

    Repeal laws prohibiting possession and use of drugs?

    There should be no national ID card?

    End corporate welfare, no government handouts to business?

    End government barriers to international free trade?

    Let people control their own retirement and privatize social security?

    Replace government welfare with private charity?

    Cut taxes and government spending by 50% or more?

    Repeal the income tax (16th amendment) and replace it with the national retail sales tax as outlined in John Linder's FairTax bill? http://www.fairtax.org

    Oh yea...and also these questions:

    C) Umm so what, Ginsburg gave them legal advice. How about how many millions of dollars are being spent by similar groups which Kerry's lawyers are giving legal advice to? Do they get a pass from you?

    D) Why don't we talk about Kerry's Senate record? What has he done in the senate that makes you think he'll be a good president? Did he have perfect attendance for the intelligence comittee? Bring for a great number of important bills?

    E) Hey, They're right, Bush didn't bring up Kerry's Vietnam service. In fact in 1992, Kerry said it shouldn't be a campaign issue what a person did or did not do in Vietnam. Anytime you make something a forefront issue, you can expect to get attacked on it. That's politics. Kerry decided to make that the basis on which he ran, so a group of people who served with him got together to expose him. They're already making him backtrack on his first purple heart. Kerry asks Bush to condemn this group, so Bush says, No I condemn all groups (which I think is wrong, all the groups have a right to say whatever they want) and Kerry says no, you should only condemn this group. "All for us, none for you" liberal opinions.

    :-D

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at August 26, 2004 01:07 PM

    Independent Voter: I will not even bother to comment on any of your ridiculous posts anymore, so please do not address me personally in the future. Feel free to comment on anything I say, just don't bother to direct your venom, personal insults and hatred at me. Your neanderthal view of the world obviously has no place in intelligent conversation. I do NOT wish to converse with you AT ALL. Thanks.

    Wow, it works just as well when I say it with your handle in there.

    Except I don't mean it. The problem is that you are a) a coward and b) not capable of arguing with me. That's one of the things I love about DF even though I disagree with him: he is actually capable of making a reasonable argument and he isn't afraid to throw one in my face.

    I have no hate towards you, and I don't spew venom anymore than you do. If what I "Spew" is venom then so do you with comments like "neanderthal view of the world." Hey, good one hypocrite. You criticize my name calling with some of your own. Not a good way to lend credence to yourself.

    Posted by: skywalker at August 26, 2004 05:07 PM

    I have tried to lay out the facts of why Bush must go in a very clear and concise manner here. I must say you guys impress me with your ability to be oblivious to the facts. You seem to have some kind of mental kevlar or something. The facts seem to have no effect, they just bounce right off!

    This is simple good and evil, right and wrong stuff here. Your parents or teachers should have taught you these things, but I will try for the sake of public interest.

    There is one simple little rule that any man woman or child can live their life by if they want to be a good person. It seems Mr. Bush forgot this rule, as it seems many others have as well.

    Do unto Others as You would have Them do unto You.

    What that means is treat people the way you would like to be treated.

    How would you feel if those were American soldiers being abused in those Abu Ghraib photos? How would you feel if it was an Iranian, or North Korean prison camp, and that was your son, brother, father, or friend in those pictures?

    How would you feel if your son, brother, father, or friend served proudly to defend his country, was decorated FIVE times for his service, and a man who didn't even go to war was behind a smear campaign against him?

    How would you feel if these things were done to YOU??

    Lastly of course we have this one.
    I saved all these posts. How would you feel if I twisted your words around to make this thread look like a huge John Kerry rally and posted it around the net? My bet is you wouldn't like having your opinion hijacked either.

    I won't do that of course. I do know when something is wrong and I can refrain from doing it myself. I just wish you could see the value of such simple truth.

    Bush is WRONG. Bush is EVIL. Bush must GO.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 27, 2004 11:23 AM

    P.S.

    Why on earth would I answer individual yes/no questions on this forum now?

    So muddy can change my opinion in 5 minutes??

    I dont think so. I will just say how I feel and you can accept it or ignore it.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at August 27, 2004 11:36 AM

    Explain to me how Bush caused soldiers to abuse prisoners?

    BTW, American military members are trained that they will be treated far worse than that if captured. We are tained to never surrender of our own free will. We are trained that if we are captured, things like, a funnel be shoved in our throat and then crude oil will be poured down it. Or we'll have short low amperage jolts of 220 volt eletricity shot through us. Or a piece of glass will be shoved into our urethra and then broken. Another good one is being beaten until your eyes are swollen shut. Or be stung by scorpions over and over and then given anti-venom. Same with snakes and spiders. Those are the types of torture Americans can expect to endure when captured. And that's only the tip of the ice berg. I bed your pardon if I don't feel a president shouldn't me re-elected based off the fact that a few soldiers (one of whom wasn't even supposed to be there) put panties on a guy's head, stacked naked men on top of each other, had a dog bark at them, lied to them and told them that if they didn't stand on a box they'd be shocked. Sorry, I just don't get a bad feeling about that like I do when we find American's in a prisoner with their legs broken in 10 places from being beaten with a metal re-bar. Or find them in the floor of a prison with wounds to the back of the head from point blank range. And yes some of these things I listed took place in Iraq, both times. Sorry, I just don't quite see the comparison.

    Why should you answer questions? Muddy didn't change you opinion, he change your stupid signature in one post. He didn't make your message seem like a big pro-bush rally either. In fact he put your signature in line with your handle which should rightfully be "Kerry Voter." I can't see how anyone truly independent could vote for either one of them, but that's just me. It was pretty obvious that it was changed, you made a fuss over it and he didn't change your fuss obviously. So quit being a coward and answer the questions.

    BTW, my grandfather was decorted more than 5 times for his service in WW2, in combat in France and Germany and in the Army of occupation in Germany. Yes accoording to his SRB he was never outside of the States or Britain and he was a cook. Yet we have pictures of him posing on his tank. Why? Because he did work for the OSS and wasn't allowed tos peak about it until 1995 under penalties of espionage. He was charged with tasks of sniping prison guards and assasinating SS leaders and sometimes their families in the middle of the night. You want to talk about a smear campaign? They said the man was a cook. He was awarded several medals but they later took them away because he couldn't talk about what he did. So despite wounds and heroic actions he walked away from WW2 with a service medal and an army of occupation medal for a country he never entered. The man didn't even get a firewatch medal or a purple heart. John Kerry is now backtracking on SEVERAL of his stories. The man pulled Rasmussen out of the water and yes that makes him a hero, but just damn, he also scammed at least one purple heart, screwed over vets, has no senate record to speak of despite 20 years there and lied about places he was and things he and others did in Vietnam. Sorry, I just don't see him as fit to be Commander in Chief. Hero yes. My Commander in Chief? HELL NO!

    You're a damned coward who can't even answer a few easy relatively uncontroversial questions about where he stands on the issues. You're a hypocrite who does exactly what he gets amd at others for doing. You about as independent as Trotsky. If you think I'm wrong then prove it with action.

    I see why you like Kerry now. You want to go into politics and you're just like him: you don't want to take a stand on anything. For that matter, Bush doesn't take much of one but at least he doesnt change his mind every 5 minutes or claim he voted twice on something.

    Oh, one more thing, when a round hit's kevlar, it generally either penetrates the kevlar and hits the body with much less force or it embeds in the kevlar and knocks the person about 5-10 feet and unconscious.

    Posted by: skywalker at August 27, 2004 12:23 PM

    IV:

    "This is simple good and evil, right and wrong stuff here. Your parents or teachers should have taught you these things, but I will try for the sake of public interest."

    How sweet! See, I knew you cared.

    "How would you feel if those were American soldiers being abused in those Abu Ghraib photos?"

    How did *you* feel about the American's and the others who were beheaded by Iraqi militants? It makes *me* sick and disgusted! How about you? Or have you forgotten about them because you're more worried about what happened to some "detainees" (and NO ONE has EVER clairified - that *I* have seen - who those "detainees" are/were) at the hand of soldiers who are already in the proccess of being punished for what they did? Where is the punishment for the Iraqi militants?!!

    "How would you feel if it was an Iranian, or North Korean prison camp, and that was your son, brother, father, or friend in those pictures?"

    How would you feel if it were *you* or your son, brother, father, friend in a POW camp in vietnam and the viet cong played Kerry's speach (the anti-war speach he gave in '71 ) over their speakers as their propaganda.

    "I saved all these posts."

    Wow! I don't know what to say...I'm touched. ***mrs. muddy wipes a tear from her eye***

    "How would you feel if I twisted your words around to make this thread look like a huge John Kerry rally and posted it around the net? My bet is you wouldn't like having your opinion hijacked either."

    Actually, How much do I win because You just lost that bet because...I don't care. Besides, If you actually went out of your way and posted this "thread" around the net by putting it on a seperate website then I would have to definatley say...you have waaaayyy tooooo much time on your hands not to mention that you would have developed a very unhealthy obsession. BTW...skywalkers right, muddy only changed your posting signature and he didn't make you look pro-bush just pro-independant...just like YOU claim to be.

    "I just wish you could see the value of such simple truth."

    Well, there's always hope now isn't there...not to mention my Christmas list to santa. Then again..."the value of such simple truth" hasn't done much to help you so maybe I should wish for something else.....

    Oh and BTW....I understand that answering yes/no questions is sometimes hard. I, myself prefer questions that have the choice of a "maybe", "perhapes" or at least an "I don't know" attached to it so if you would like to try it *that* way...then that's cool.

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at August 28, 2004 12:29 AM

    mrs muddy: actually I'd accept a yes no or a maybe answer for any of those questions.

    Posted by: skywalker at August 28, 2004 12:40 AM

    yeah...well...dream on baby, dream on....
    :-)

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at August 28, 2004 01:33 AM

    So, Bush twice opposes the creation of the 9-11 comission, then they throw the Republican National Convention in New York. Did they really think New Yorkers would forget that fact??

    Eventually Evil does consume itself, or so they say. That appears to be the case at the Republican National Convention. Approximately 500,000 people came together the other day in New York in the biggest protest of a political convention in history. It really was something to see. A protest that covered the entire street and was 2 miles long. Do you REALLY think Bush has any chance to win???

    http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/08/29/gop.main/index.html

    Bush said and I quote "No, I don't think he lied." when he was questioned whether or not he thought John Kerry had lied to get ANY of his medals. Hmmm... Let's see here... He condemned 527 groups but not the Swift Boaters for Lies commercials, even though he says he believes John Kerry. What does this tell us about Bush? It tells us that Bush will not even stand up for an AMERICAN he knows is being wrongly persecuted if it benefits him some meager political gain. He doesn't think the rules apply to him at all. (reminds me of someone.. can't quite place it..)

    I said in an earlier post on this very page that "Bush is such a coward he would hide behind his Momma if he could". Then at the Republican Convention he said "Some people say I have a blunt personality. Well you can blame that on the white haired lady sitting right there". (points finger rudely at Momma after rudely calling her "white haired")

    Bush is now using his underhanded tactics in those swing states, just like he did to Mccain to win the Republican Nomination. (Don't worry, that won't save him this time.) It's called Push Polling. Basically they call voters, lie to them, and ask if that changes their opinion. For Mccain, it went like this, "Would you vote for Senator Mccain if you knew he fathered an illegitimate child?". Which was of course completely untrue. For John Kerry, push pollers working for the Republicans are calling voters and asking them, "Would you still vote for John Kerry if he had a 95% chance to get cancer again?". When in fact John Kerrys doctors say he is 95% likely to be cancer free in ten years. For those of you who didn't know, our next President John F. Kerry beat cancer much like another American Hero Lance Armstrong.

    It's just one more desperate, illegal, "the rules don't apply to us" Republican attempt to steal the election. I saw a black lady just the other day being unknowingly used as a tool for illegal voter discrimination by the Republicans. She was signing up people to vote but ONLY if you joined the Republicans. She even had a sign stating this. That is illegal. You must legally sign up anyone who wants to register be they Black, White, Independant, Democrat or Republican. To see a Black Woman who has probably suffered through much discrimination in her life, out there being used as a tool for discrimination made me just sick to my stomach. Once again Bush has taken us to an all new low.

    John Kerry said it best:
    "Only George W. Bush could celebrate over a record budget deficit of $422 billion, a loss of 1.6 million jobs and Medicare premiums that are up by a record 17 percent,"Kerry said. "W stands for wrong -- the wrong direction for America."

    http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/07/kerry.outsourcing.ap/


    Why shouldn't I be allowed to be an Independant AND still have an opinion? I am not politically affiliated with any party, yet I am intelligent enough to see that a 422 billion dollar deficit is probably bad for America. George took a budget surplus and turned into the BIGGEST DEFICT IN HISTORY. He is a glorious moron, and that's why he is dodging the debates with Kerry.

    Look Muddy, if you want to take over peoples opinions, you should really just state that in the rules for your forum. Or did I miss that section? If someone could please post a link to the rules section where it says:

    ***"Muddy reserves the right to steal your opinion to make it look like you agree with him, if and when his position becomes too unbelievably weak to continue arguing his outlandish views."***

    I mean come on already. I didnt post for a while, so you didn't think I'd be back to notice you Hijacking my opinion. Then, when I bust you on it, you say it's a joke. Did you ever see that sign about shoplifting in the Wal-Mart bathroom? "It is not a joke, it is not a prank, it is a crime...." I think that applies here.

    I will happily answer individual questions if Muddy will PROMISE not to change my answers, EVER AGAIN. So far you guys still seem to think it's funny to steal my opinion. I still say it's wrong. You admitted you did it, so just promise you won't do it anymore, and we can move on.

    VOTE JOHN KERRY!

    Posted by: Independant Voter at September 9, 2004 12:45 PM

    First muddy never changed your answers. I'm not going to address everything you've said, simply cause I'm getting ready for work,

    First off, we are currently is the largest job growth over the past 20 years. The economy was declining before he took office. Economists all say that without the Bush taxcuts our recession would have been far worse and probably still ongoing. We also have, yes fewer jobs than we did 4 years ago (Well, we do if you go by the establishment survey, accoording to the household survey we have more, but you don't like mentioning that do you?) However, we still have historically lower unemployment.

    Did you support medicare drug benefit? Did you support the creation of the TSA? Well wow, there you have the majority of your deficit. For the record, I didn't/don't approve of the department of homeland security or the TSA.

    Muddy also didn't steal your opinion, he didn't change you answer, he mocked your signature. Quit being a whiny little b----. Get the heck over it.

    Oh, and just so you know, Regan tried and succeeded in getting rid of 1 proposed debate though Mondale wanted all three, same with Bush 41, and Clinton. Most sitting presidents try to reduce the debates. So, get over it.

    BTW, the deficit is not the biggest in history. Numberically it is, but when you compare it (A) to inflation and (B) by percentage of GDP, it is in no way the biggest in history.

    Imagine if we had instated Hillary care in the'90s, our deficit would be gargantuan, and Bill Clinton would probably be dead of a heart attack! Why? Because unlike most countries (in particular Canada, which Hillary Care emulated) we don't have massive wait times for things like heart bypasses and visits to cardiologists. Also, under Hillary Care, it would have been illegal for him to find a private pay doctor for him to pay privately to get around the wait times. So maybe you ought to thank you lucky stars that we aren't in that deficit.

    None of this is mentioning that your candidate's party wants to reinstate the draft!

    Typical liberal.

    You want to prove you're not a liberal, then answer the questions, and make it all better.

    Posted by: skywalker at September 9, 2004 01:35 PM

    "Look Muddy, if you want to take over peoples opinions.........."

    You whine more than a child. And *I* know, we have children. But, I *expect* it from them...they're just behaving naturally but in the end...they get sent to their rooms until they've calmed down and cut it out.


    Oh and, btw...

    "Then at the Republican Convention he said "Some people say I have a blunt personality. Well you can blame that on the white haired lady sitting right there". (points finger rudely at Momma after rudely calling her "white haired")"

    What's so rude about that? Maybe that's the way they joke with each other. Who cares! I've said similar things to my grandmother before. One example was when Someone joked around with her a few years back and I told them - something to the extent - to be careful because she's a feisty red-headed woman and she wouldn't put up with them. All who were there - *including* my grandmother (who knows I have the upmost respect and love for her)- agreed and got a good laugh out of it.

    Posted by: mrs. muddy at September 9, 2004 02:15 PM

    John Kerry Voter (aka. Independent Voter) please step away from the crack pipe.. back away. Whatever your taking to make you hallucinate please put it down as well.
    Step iiiinnnnttttoooo reality... there we go.. isn't that better?
    Once you leave la la land and realize your in the real world you will better understand that...

    you are in need of help.

    Repeat after me..

    I am not an independent voter
    I am not an independent voter
    I am a john kerry fanboi
    I am a john kerry fanboi
    I am not an independent voter
    I am not an independent voter
    I am a john kerry fanboi
    I am a john kerry fanboi
    I am not an independent voter
    I am not an independent voter
    I am a john kerry fanboi
    I am a john kerry fanboi
    I am not an independent voter
    I am not an independent voter


    Now once you loose your delusion of grandeur we can talk like sensible people.

    Until then, may God bless you and keep you safe.

    Posted by: muddy at September 9, 2004 07:14 PM

    False. The organizers claim 500k people. The police and parks service claim less than 150k.

    False. Carter's budget deficit was a larger percentage of GDP and is larger when adjusted for inflation.

    True. Whose fault is that though? The voters of Florida for being stupid I'd say.

    False. He's the first one since Truman. Of course he's also the first president in history to look 3000k citizens in s asingle day right at the end of recession and still turn that recession around. I'd say that we'r elucky it isn't worse.

    False. The US did not have to ask. 13 Democrats wanted to ask. It was completely unnecessary.

    False. Roosevelt opposed investigation of Pearl Harbor and for the same reasons: fear of it becoming a political mess instead of an independent investigation.

    I swear to God you sound like such a jackass signing every post that way.

    Posted by: skywalker at September 10, 2004 05:31 PM

    last post, this has become a rant instead of a conversation. Comments are closed for this article.

    Posted by: muddy at September 10, 2004 09:43 PM