muddysmind.com

theyre right. even bush said the war on terror cant be won.

ZZooooommmmmmmm

ah, you seem to have missed my point.

no i got your point about the hypocrisy of the people that get violent in the streets while protesting against violence.

i wouldnt consider them the "only" group to do that. i mean theyre not blowing up abortion clinics killing people to save the life of a sack of goo.

i also see you take part in the old american past time of shifting blame from one group to another.

Actually mooseboy that's not exactly what Bush said.

I also love how you call an unborn baby a sack of goo. Have you ever seen what an aborted baby looks like?

Muddy,
Actually, I noticed all that too.

Mooseboy:

"i wouldnt consider them the "only" group to do that. i mean theyre not blowing up abortion clinics killing people..."

Yes, and I would say that their goal should be in preserving life NOT taking it away. So, yes, those "people" blowing up abortion clinics are just as hypocritical.

"...to save the life of a sack of goo."

A sack of goo? well 2 things to say about that:

1) Do me and the rest of the world a favor...don't ever have children until you can apreciate the true miracle they are without belittling their "humble beginnings". (no offense btw.)

2) That comment makes you sound as if *you* yourself have not mentally developed past "goo" yourself.

"i also see you take part in the old american past time of shifting blame from one group to another."

No, actually YOU brought the - bombing up abortion clinic - thing up. So there's no "shifting" going on for muddy wasn't even talking about that. And I *highly* doubt that was on his mind when he was writting his post. However, I'm sure he would agree with me that those "abortion clinic bombers" would be just as hypocritical.

dont worry, i dont plan on having children. i actually realize children are an STD i dont want. but then again, accidents happen so who knows. :)
have i seen an aborted baby? sure i have. ive seen a late term abortion. i even saw a chinese man eating a baby once. [or it sure in the heck looked real] i consider abortion a part of life. i mean people kill animals with no problem. skywalker im pretty sure youve had at least a few 8 point bucks in your day. im sure you dont fret over killing its life. its just something that happens.

i want to protect life. its just like osmething that happened locally. it makes you think and shake your head head and say, "why didnt she have an abortion". sad really, this all could have been negated by a trip to plan parenthood.

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~2370775,00.html

as far as the "sack of goo" reference, that actually comes from bill mahrer. right before they yanked his show on abc, he was talking about stim cell research and some pro life idiot was on there saying its "destroying life". then bill mahrer responded, "its a petrie dish full of goo".

when i said shifiting the blame, i mean how he percieves 60 raidicals as the real problem. its just blaiming another group shifiting the blame. kinda like bush and the cia, foriegn intelligence, moon dust or whatever he can blame about "bad intelligence".

"i actually realize children are an STD i dont want."

O-Kayyy??? Then maybe you should go ahead wiht that vasectomy now *before* that "accident" occurs.:-)

"i mean people kill animals with no problem."

yes, this is true. And I see do see your point, However, an animal can run away and protect itself by hidding or by fighting back. An unborn (not to mention a newborn and toddler) baby is defenseless and *can't* protect itself nor can they hide nor can they fight back. They're left at the mercy of our own hands.

Actually, I've never been hunting. I like to fish though. Very relaxing.

But thank you for implying I'm a backwoods redneck. I think you'd be very surprised how I am if you met me, but you're to busy calling unborn babies sacks of goo (which is a stark difference from the embryo in a petre dish btw) and falling back of every conservative being a redneck with a big pick-up truck with a rifle rack in the window. (I've actually only seen that once and I live in the south, go figure.)

I actually like Bill Maher BTW and I agree with him on stem cell research being no big deal (Although I think Bush's decision was right, which was to cut off government funding for it but that's for different reasons.)

Abortion is in fact killing an unborn child. When a baby is aborted it has all the shape and features of a baby which has come to term, it is only smaller. PEople talk about it being hte woman's choice and I'mm all for choice except people forget about one thing: the baby's choice.

Even worse is partial birth abortion which can be best described as cold blooded murder. It involved the baby being brought partly out and recieving a head wound and having it's brain sucked out. Very gruesome.

60 radicals? I'm just hoping New York doesn't turn into another Seattle where they basically shut down the city with the riots.

"Actually, I've never been hunting. I like to fish though. Very relaxing.

But thank you for implying I'm a backwoods redneck. I think you'd be very surprised how I am if you met me"

im not saying your a backwood redneck at all. you seem to be very conservative pro gun christian ex-military type, and those types tend to hunt alot. it has nothing to do with being a redneck. i have friend in south flordia that goes boar hog hunting every year. i know a guy in south ohio that pretty much shoots anything that walks on his property [including squirrels].

abortion is a philosophical issue. you see it as "murder", i see it as a necessary nuisance. would you stop eating meat? there is no reason for anyone to eat meat, not with the modern society we have and all the way to get protein in non animal forms. hell, most doctors would even argue its good for you to not eat meat, or at least reduce your intake of it.

its kinda like eating meat, your killing something, but its for a better good. thats kind of my opinion on abortion. you wouldnt give up meat to save a life? you probably wouldnt eat your dog or cat under any circumstance, so why a cow? in the same way you most likey dont see killing an animal as "murder", i dont view abortion as "murder".
i see it as getting rid of a problem before it starts. and that problem being an unwanted child. sure you can give that responsibilty-profolactic argument, but thats living in utopia. im trying to help you libertarians cut down on government spending for welfare and public schools, on crime etc.

Skywalker:

"Actually, I've never been hunting....But thank you for implying I'm a backwoods redneck."

What does hunting have to do with being a backwoods redneck? My uncle lives in Ohio and loves to hunt...and he's not a redneck.

Mooseboy:

That article is indeed very sad and tragic. She could have given the baby up for adoption but even *that* (along wiht her pregnancy) is just a result of the real problem....which sounds like she has a family with *plenty* of problems. She couldn't have been more than 13 when she got pregnant anyway. Maybe she was raped but if not then what's a 13 yr. old doing having sex!? No, it does not surprise me at all but just goes to show that obviously she comes from a pretty chaotic home and quite possibly low self esteem not to mention other problems as well.

"...you probably wouldnt eat your dog or cat under any circumstance..."

actually, I've come to the conclusion myself in the past couple of years that if people eat cow, pig, lamb and so on then why *do* seemingly most people have a problem with eating Garfield or Odie or even their hampsters?

no she shouldnt have given the baby up for adoption. she shouldnt have had it! i agree at 13 year old shouldnt be having sex, but not for any religious reason. just that when i was 13 i didnt so im jealous so no one should. :)

some parents dont want sex ed taught in schools, then you have idiot religious nuts that want abstinence only, or no sexual education so i can see why things like this happen.

americans wont eat dog or cats because theyre arrogant hypocrits. i bet 8-10 times the "average joe" wouldnt have any problem sitting down and eating a cheeseburger in front of someone that was hindu and chomping down.
yet, if you sat down infront of that very person and ate stir fryed cat. they would call you barbaric. its just hypocrisy.

i actually eat meat. i have a friend thats vegan and he said, "would you eat a dog or cat". and i said hell yes, i mean for all we know cats could be high in omega-3 fatty acids and we would never know.

"no she shouldnt have given the baby up for adoption. she shouldnt have had it!"

Well, you have *your* beliefs and I have mine.

"i agree at 13 year old shouldnt be having sex, but not for any religious reason. just that when i was 13 i didnt so im jealous so no one should. :)"

LOL! Well, I guess that's one way to look at it.:-) but at the same time, 13 yr. olds (no matter how educated some of them are - or no matter how educated some of them *think* they are on sex) are not mature enough to make that big of a decision anyway.

"some parents dont want sex ed taught in schools..."

Well, it's really not the schools responsibility but at the same time, if the school gave us a "heads up" on what they were going to teach and how they were going to teach it then we (Muddy and I) could make our decision from there. As long as *I* would know ahead of time...I don't think I would mind. I would just make sure I would explain things first. I just don't want things of that nature "snuck" into schools without my knowledge.

"then you have idiot religious nuts that want abstinence only, or no sexual education so i can see why things like this happen."

Yes, this is true...but most Christians also believe in abstinence only - which is nothing wrong wiht that belief. You do, however, have a good point on sex education though. As a matter of fact, the 2 main churches *I* attended growing up basically convienced the parents (especially my mom and probably my dad) that teaching kids (teenagers really) about sex and *especially* about preventive methods, only encouraged them to have sex. With all do respect to others who may be reading this...I find that way of thinking to be completely asinine! It's true that it depends on the person and how they percieve the information BUT *my* thinking is that if you explain sex AND birth control methods to your teen, it gives them the power to make a complete and informed decision and also it will most likely give them a sence of how much of a responsibility a sexual relationship truely is and in some (if not alot of cases) help these teens to be more responsible with their decision.

"americans wont eat dog or cats because theyre arrogant hypocrits....they would call you barbaric. its just hypocrisy."

Couldn't agree wiht you more on that one.

"i mean for all we know cats could be high in omega-3 fatty acids and we would never know."

Hahaha....or they could be that perfect diet for some people to be on to loose a bunch of weight.

I just came across this site by chance. I just thought I would add my two cents worth. I believe abortion is murder. I agree that the unborn child gets no choice if he/she wants to live or die. It's a senseless crime that should be AGAINST THE LAW!!! I as well believe anyone whom aborts an unborn child is a murderer.

"I just came across this site by chance."

Hello, Chippy, and welcome.:-)

"It's a senseless crime that should be AGAINST THE LAW!!!"

Agreed.

"I as well believe anyone whom aborts an unborn child is a murderer."

Well, yes, however, I also think that there are alot of women and girls out there who are so troubled by their decision but just don't feel as if they know any other way. It doesn't justify the abortion but I personally wouldn't throw any stones myself - no matter *what* state of mind they're in. It's not my place anyhow.:-)

I don't throw stones like "murderer" at women who get abortions. Many (though definitely not a majority) are young girls who are being pressured to or jus tdon't know what else to do.

I do however believe it is wrong and is murder. But to say someone who gets an abortion is a murderer is to misunderstand the term murder. Murder implies that you killed with malice. Women don't hate their children. That's preposterous. They just odn't know what else to do.

Excelent point, Skywalker! I think I shall retract part of what I said. You're right....murder does imply that you kill wiht malice. Some women and girls *don't* know what else to do. Some also don't believe that a baby is an actual baby until it is out of the womb so though it still must be a painful decision, they don't think (or at least, they convince themselves) that the fetus will feel anything or that at least the fetus won't know any different so they just decide abortion is the better solution. Plus, I've also heard of women who recieve news through tests that their baby will be seriously handicapped so they don't want the baby to live that life. They have an abortion because they think they're sparing the baby from a horrible life. There are *all* sorts of endless reasons but in the end, as I've stated before, I don't believe those women deserve judgement or condemnation from us.

Hiya,

Thanks for the welcome :) Skywalker made a great point. . . so I'll eat a little of my wording choice. . . but abortion is murder, that I'll forever stand tall on. I'll go farther to try to choose my wording better. . . any female that has an abortion of her own free will, that is of age and has the total understanding of what an abortion is. . . . and still aborts the child anyway, is a murderer. I know that in some cases the baby is aborted to save the life of the mother. Now, the cases argued on that matter have a heart felt story from the mother of why she "had" to do "it". However, I'm a firm believer in that if the doctor told me if you give birth it will kill you in the end. I'd choose to have a C-Section if that would help any. I'd take the risk because I done the act to get pregnant which made this child inside me. Me and my husband argue on the fact of "Would I have an abortion if I was raped and got pregnant". Now, mind ya we debated this one when we were freshly a couple together. We don't debate so many what if's now having been married 10 yrs. this Friday. But, he hated that I stood firm in I would not abort the child if it was a product from rape. He said he didn't know if he could live with a child of the rappiest. My answer to that is. . simply this. . if you can't love a child without prejudice you have a very cold spot in your heart that you might outta' seek help for! (I suck with wording at times but bear with me LOL) Maybe the answer to the females having abortions whom think it's ok. . . is to educate not only about sex and safe methods to our children. . but to as well add in the circulim about abortion and what it actually is. Hell, if we can disect pigs, frogs, cats, and such in biology class. Oh yeah, and learn about, what's it called?, that theory that we all came from damn monkeys? (Shoot, my minds a mush, LOL) Anyhow, you know what I'm speaking of. Then we can educate our children males and females about what abortion really is. Actually, it shouldn't be the school systems job but the parents. . . however, some still seem to have a hard time telling their kids about sex like stuff/tuff issue's. Ok, I wrote a book going now. . . prob. left sumphang out but I'll be back :D

Again thanks for the welcome. . . and skywalker thanks for calling me on the mis-usage of the word. . . . "murderer".

Chippy

Oh, one last thing. I agree that the females having abortions . . . some may NOT hate the unborn child they are killing. . . however, isn't murder also defined as "the act of killing without regard to other human life, to another living breathing thing"? So, some babies are aborted due to the lack of education available on abortion. Hmmmmm, that makes me want to fix up pamplets and place them in health departments, wal-mart bathrooms, grocery store bathrooms, etc. . . hell but I ain't no pamplet kinda fixer upper gal either. . . but it was a great thought, eh.

"The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice." Murderer

The key word. .. and the dictionary got it in there for sure. . . is "unlawful" . . . exactly why it should be against the law.

" 2. The intent, without just cause or reason, to commit a wrongful act that will result in harm to another.
" Malice

The lack of education and feelings to go with the pure fact that it is a living breathing human being inside the to be mother is the only thing that can take away the malice in the willful act of abortion that results in the harm of another. There is no just cause or reason to take another life. (the only exception I see in there would be to use the electric chair to kill someone whom has commited a hanus murder themselves.)