muddysmind.com

couldn't agree more with your "muddy's note" - as I was also taught the same thing (mostly from the churchs I attended). All *I* know is only God knows your heart *and* your intentions....and only He can be the judge.

Sad situation indeed...

It is absolutely possible that you could go to heaven should you decide to take your own life. Obviously situation and circumstance help dicatate the end result. If you for whatever reason are unable to cope with this world anymore and you've already made your life commitment to God and you've decided that you are truly ready go to to God, how could you be refused?

In some ways, suicide is very selfish. When you take your own life you also take your life away from the people who love you. You give up in trying to save yourself from anymore pain. Trust me, I'm truely NOT judging - just stating one of *many* possible scenarios. Also, at least in some cases, suicide can be noted as not trusting in God enough to see you through....basically, taking control of your fate instead of putting the control in God's hands. However, in cases such as this, where the person is mentally ill in some way, it is a unique situation you're dealing with. Any time suicide is involved in a person's death, it is certainly not a "one size fits all" situation and only God is in the posistion (as He always is) to make that call.

It has always been my belief that children always get a pass into heaven if they die before a certain age. I believe that this would also apply to the mentally ill. If he was being treated as a manic depressive than that would qualify him in my book. However this brings the question to mind; wouldnt anyone who kills themself be qualified as mentally ill?

So now I am back to square one. I guess

"wouldnt anyone who kills themself be qualified as mentally ill?"

Hmmm...that is a good one to ponder....

Iw ould say that suicide does not necesarilly mean mental illness. Mental illness is an illness, something physically wrong with the body. Sometimes people put themselves into, or are put into situations so bad that they don't believe they can cope and believe that it would be easier on them or other people around them if they just end it once and for all. That doesn't mean something was wrong with them physically though.

I have an aunt who is very much mentall ill. She's been institutionalized in some way shape or form, for most of her adult life. Her blood work ups, cat scans, brain activity, chemical make up, you name it, all show up very much differently than mine, or muddy's would show up. Why? Because she has an illness,s omething physically wrong with the body. That doesn't someone who tries to kill themselves doesn't need the help of a psychologist. A therapist could do them a lot of good.

As for heaven and all that, there is zero in the Bible to indiciate suicide prevents you from going to heaven. Don't even bring up Judas because the Bible simply says he killed himself. That was and is an old Catholic belief based on the fact that they a) were sinning while dying which prevented them from asking forgiveness for that specific sin which Catholic believe necesary for salvation and b) they don't get their last rites.

Sky, I disagree. Anyone who would take their own life must be mentally ill. What sane person would end their own life?

"wouldnt anyone who kills themself be qualified as mentally ill?"

"Hmmm...that is a good one to ponder...."

Though I do feel that could be an interresting debate...I've been thinking about that off and on in the past hour. I've actually remembered a few incidents where I've known or heard of someone who attempted or at least thought of suicide (one who actually did - I did not know him) and though I don't know much about most of their lives, a few I did know and those people were not mentally ill. Sometimes people just get to the point where they're surrounded by others who constantly berate them and make them feel like they can do nothing right. They may feel like they will just never fit in. We *all* have times like those in our lives but when you go through it constantly day in and day out for years - no matter how much you try to tell yourself that it will eventually "be ok", you just can't believe that truth when you have people (sometimes family members) around you telling you differently.

I really didn't explain that as best as I wanted to but I just wanted to quickly comment on that a little further.

cwilli, I know someone who wanted to, but i can't say who it is.

Trust me, many people who are sane kill themselves. Do you really think the tens of thousands of teenagers that try to kill themselves each year are insane? Teenagers go through a lot of crap these days and some of them simply believe it will be easier to end it than go on. It's a hard concept to grasp, but it is true.

"Sometimes people just get to the point where they're surrounded by others who constantly berate them and make them feel like they can do nothing right. They may feel like they will just never fit in."

Thats true. Its called depression. It a mental illness.

"We *all* have times like those in our lives "

But most of us dont kill ourselves. What seperates most of us from the ones who do kill themselves?

Most people that kill themselves are suffering from depression at the time. Have you ever known someone who was not depressed that took their own lives?

Depression is a mental illness. Manic depression is a mental illness that is very hard to fight off.

Sky, Mental illness and insanity are not the same thing. Thats like saying cancer and the common cold are the same.

Mentall illness can be very temporary. And yes thousands of teenagers get very depressed every year and take their lives (sometimes others lives)

God's forgivenes is not conditional. The Blood of Christ erases our sin, past, present and future. Christ sacrifice was perfect andthere is no sin bigger than what his sacrifice covers. If there was any sin that his blood cannot redeem, then his sacrifice would not have conquered death. That "No man can pluck them from my Father's hand" excludes none. No act of man can UN-save someone. No sin can UN-save someone. God cannot change or he is not God. It is a tough question becasue many teach this as dogma. Suicide is a sin, but Christ's blood, when applied to sin, covers it entirely. It doesn't pick and choose which sins to cover. You are made whole for eternity in God's eyes. This is my opinion and if i had time i would research it and bring scripture to supoprt what i am saying, but my exegesis skills grow rusty, and time is short this eve. I hope that by knowing this no one justifies it as an excuse to end thier own life. God places no mountain in your path which he has not equipped you to climb.

Very good point, mr. carey.

"It is a tough question becasue many teach this as dogma."

Yes, and it is definately one of *many* subjects that one (especially the church) should be very careful about when teaching it.